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<blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 6059463" data-attributes="member: 7006">The only thing I'd say at this point is that I think I'd prefer if we no longer even bothered to categorize &quot;magic&quot; into groups.&nbsp; IE no more Divine magic, Arcane magic, Nature magic etc.&nbsp; Instead, we just have the Cleric's miracles, the Wizard's spells, the Druid's nature magic, the Bard's musical incantations, the Warlock's pact magic, the Paladin and Ranger's respective magical abilities, etc. etc.&nbsp; Each class uses &quot;Magic&quot; individually, and never cut across each other.Reason being... they've never really done a great job in actually distinguishing what any particular &quot;source&quot; of magic is.&nbsp; Clerics used &quot;Divine&quot; magic.&nbsp; Magic that is granted them from a higher being (in this case, the gods).&nbsp; But why aren't Warlocks then divine?&nbsp; They get their magic from a higher being-- and before you say &quot;well, their higher beings aren't the gods&quot;... in 4E the devil Asmodeus *is* a god.&nbsp; So you could have an Infernal Pact Warlock make a bargain with Asmodeus, but still... his magic gets called &quot;Arcane&quot; rather than &quot;Divine&quot;... just because Warlocks were arbitrarily put in the &quot;Arcane&quot; magic category.&nbsp; Same thing with the Bards.&nbsp; steeldragons, you make a good point about how Bards used to be Druid off-shoots and probably could/should go back there.&nbsp; But then they got lumped into the &quot;Arcane&quot; bin too.And to go even further... what does &quot;Arcane&quot; magic even mean?&nbsp; It's NEVER really been adequately explained.&nbsp; And as a result... any magic that isn't from the gods specifically, or the nature spirits specifically, gets dumped into the Arcane bin.&nbsp; Magic borrowed from the Far Realm?&nbsp; Arcane.&nbsp; Magic that comes from storms?&nbsp; Arcane.&nbsp; Magic that you harness from learning special phrases and hand gestures?&nbsp; Arcane.&nbsp; Magic you get from playing a musical instrument?&nbsp; Arcane.&nbsp; Magic that powers little mechanical devices?&nbsp; Magic from the Underdark?&nbsp; Magic from dragons?&nbsp; Magic from your ancestors?&nbsp; All Arcane.&nbsp; There is absolutely no rhyme nor reason to what this eldritch stuff is... and more importantly why all these different ways of using it all fall under the nebulous category of &quot;Arcane&quot;.&nbsp; And on top of that... why &quot;Magic from the gods&quot; and &quot;Magic from the primal spirits&quot; get their own special categories, when NONE OF THE OTHERS do.&nbsp; It makes absolutely no sense.So I'd rather we just strip out the categories altogether... go back to using &quot;Magic&quot; as the ONE BROAD CATEGORY... and just say that every single class uses Magic in whatever goofy way they do.&nbsp; And leave ideas of &quot;divine&quot; or &quot;arcane&quot; as nothing more than just one adjective out of many to describe the cleric and wizard specifically.&nbsp; I think the whole Magic system would be a lot better off.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="DEFCON 1, post: 6059463, member: 7006"] The only thing I'd say at this point is that I think I'd prefer if we no longer even bothered to categorize "magic" into groups. IE no more Divine magic, Arcane magic, Nature magic etc. Instead, we just have the Cleric's miracles, the Wizard's spells, the Druid's nature magic, the Bard's musical incantations, the Warlock's pact magic, the Paladin and Ranger's respective magical abilities, etc. etc. Each class uses "Magic" individually, and never cut across each other. Reason being... they've never really done a great job in actually distinguishing what any particular "source" of magic is. Clerics used "Divine" magic. Magic that is granted them from a higher being (in this case, the gods). But why aren't Warlocks then divine? They get their magic from a higher being-- and before you say "well, their higher beings aren't the gods"... in 4E the devil Asmodeus *is* a god. So you could have an Infernal Pact Warlock make a bargain with Asmodeus, but still... his magic gets called "Arcane" rather than "Divine"... just because Warlocks were arbitrarily put in the "Arcane" magic category. Same thing with the Bards. steeldragons, you make a good point about how Bards used to be Druid off-shoots and probably could/should go back there. But then they got lumped into the "Arcane" bin too. And to go even further... what does "Arcane" magic even mean? It's NEVER really been adequately explained. And as a result... any magic that isn't from the gods specifically, or the nature spirits specifically, gets dumped into the Arcane bin. Magic borrowed from the Far Realm? Arcane. Magic that comes from storms? Arcane. Magic that you harness from learning special phrases and hand gestures? Arcane. Magic you get from playing a musical instrument? Arcane. Magic that powers little mechanical devices? Magic from the Underdark? Magic from dragons? Magic from your ancestors? All Arcane. There is absolutely no rhyme nor reason to what this eldritch stuff is... and more importantly why all these different ways of using it all fall under the nebulous category of "Arcane". And on top of that... why "Magic from the gods" and "Magic from the primal spirits" get their own special categories, when NONE OF THE OTHERS do. It makes absolutely no sense. So I'd rather we just strip out the categories altogether... go back to using "Magic" as the ONE BROAD CATEGORY... and just say that every single class uses Magic in whatever goofy way they do. And leave ideas of "divine" or "arcane" as nothing more than just one adjective out of many to describe the cleric and wizard specifically. I think the whole Magic system would be a lot better off. [/QUOTE]

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