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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6931234" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Yeah, we will just have to disagree. I don't think there was any great degree of imbalance outside of combat. Your most basic stock fighter is short one skill, and if you restrict yourself to the obvious skill choices that only work off your most common high stats (STR,CON,WIS usually, but also maybe DEX) then you have a somewhat niche repertoire, but its very easy to escape that box. I mean humans get an extra skill, which already puts you on a par with most other starting characters. You can pick an MC feat, that's almost sure to give you another, etc. You can pick a background that options you into pretty much any extra skill training, so the actual list of what you can pick from is effectively unlimited (though some combinations might be hard to do at level 1). You could also become a ritual caster (as an example, or pick up martial practices if you care to use those). Even alchemy is an option that might actually be interesting for a fighter (lets assume maybe your DM will let you mark with an alchemical item attack, though by RAW it technically doesn't work). </p><p></p><p>There are plenty of examples of effective 'Rogues' in fantasy literature, folklore, and myth too. What frustrated me GREATLY about AD&D was the sheer impossibility of developing a character along those lines. Its 'NOPE, YOU CAN CLIMB WALLS, YOU MUST SUCK AT COMBAT!' Its hamstringing the players. Instead, the basic assumption of tactical equality in 4e frees you up. You certainly CAN make a character that is relatively incompetent in combat (and even leverage that into a bit more capability elsewhere if you want). Its just not the default assumption that only certain classes can fight well. Just like it isn't the default assumption that only certain classes can do OO combat stuff well.</p><p></p><p>4e is of course not quite perfect. Fighters should really have a 4th starting skill (an easy houserule BTW) and I'd be OK with something like say some themes that expanded on certain niches. Say something like a Thief theme that got you a few utility power swaps that granted some really kick ass thing you could do with Stealth or something. Then if you want to be just the sneakiest bastard around, well there's a path to that. You COULD of course optimize Stealth without such a thing, but not to a really unique degree where you have some real signature tricks nobody else can do.</p><p></p><p>I have some boons I'm working on for my hack where you'd get some utility powers that really amp up specific things like Stealth to do exactly that. You don't HAVE to be a rogue to get that boon, but it does leverage DEX pretty strongly, which is usually favored by rogues, and I can always link it to Rogue, or to some other thematically related boons. Linkage isn't described as 'requirement' exactly, its more like "here's a set of boons that have thematic coherence together, if you want X, the GM will find it easy to provide the narrative justification for Y first." Anyway, you can see how a system like that, which works on narrative justification more than either niche protection or optimization can work that way. </p><p></p><p>Honestly, the end result is that classes ARE weaker in my system than in 4e. Being a 'knight' doesn't actually preclude being able to cast a spell by acquiring 'Fire Adept' as a major boon, which is a lot easier than the equivalent in 4e (MCing for quite a few levels for instance, or building the character from the start as a hybrid of some sort). OTOH, if the narrative justification is there, that's great. You only get around 5 powers to toss around anyway, so its not exactly like you can gain a lot of mileage by shopping all over for the best boons.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 6931234, member: 82106"] Yeah, we will just have to disagree. I don't think there was any great degree of imbalance outside of combat. Your most basic stock fighter is short one skill, and if you restrict yourself to the obvious skill choices that only work off your most common high stats (STR,CON,WIS usually, but also maybe DEX) then you have a somewhat niche repertoire, but its very easy to escape that box. I mean humans get an extra skill, which already puts you on a par with most other starting characters. You can pick an MC feat, that's almost sure to give you another, etc. You can pick a background that options you into pretty much any extra skill training, so the actual list of what you can pick from is effectively unlimited (though some combinations might be hard to do at level 1). You could also become a ritual caster (as an example, or pick up martial practices if you care to use those). Even alchemy is an option that might actually be interesting for a fighter (lets assume maybe your DM will let you mark with an alchemical item attack, though by RAW it technically doesn't work). There are plenty of examples of effective 'Rogues' in fantasy literature, folklore, and myth too. What frustrated me GREATLY about AD&D was the sheer impossibility of developing a character along those lines. Its 'NOPE, YOU CAN CLIMB WALLS, YOU MUST SUCK AT COMBAT!' Its hamstringing the players. Instead, the basic assumption of tactical equality in 4e frees you up. You certainly CAN make a character that is relatively incompetent in combat (and even leverage that into a bit more capability elsewhere if you want). Its just not the default assumption that only certain classes can fight well. Just like it isn't the default assumption that only certain classes can do OO combat stuff well. 4e is of course not quite perfect. Fighters should really have a 4th starting skill (an easy houserule BTW) and I'd be OK with something like say some themes that expanded on certain niches. Say something like a Thief theme that got you a few utility power swaps that granted some really kick ass thing you could do with Stealth or something. Then if you want to be just the sneakiest bastard around, well there's a path to that. You COULD of course optimize Stealth without such a thing, but not to a really unique degree where you have some real signature tricks nobody else can do. I have some boons I'm working on for my hack where you'd get some utility powers that really amp up specific things like Stealth to do exactly that. You don't HAVE to be a rogue to get that boon, but it does leverage DEX pretty strongly, which is usually favored by rogues, and I can always link it to Rogue, or to some other thematically related boons. Linkage isn't described as 'requirement' exactly, its more like "here's a set of boons that have thematic coherence together, if you want X, the GM will find it easy to provide the narrative justification for Y first." Anyway, you can see how a system like that, which works on narrative justification more than either niche protection or optimization can work that way. Honestly, the end result is that classes ARE weaker in my system than in 4e. Being a 'knight' doesn't actually preclude being able to cast a spell by acquiring 'Fire Adept' as a major boon, which is a lot easier than the equivalent in 4e (MCing for quite a few levels for instance, or building the character from the start as a hybrid of some sort). OTOH, if the narrative justification is there, that's great. You only get around 5 powers to toss around anyway, so its not exactly like you can gain a lot of mileage by shopping all over for the best boons. [/QUOTE]
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