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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6931908" data-attributes="member: 6696971">I often see this brought up as a point against 4e, but I think it overlooks several key components of the edition's noncombat conflict resolution engine (1-4) among others:1)  The first component simply being the machinery of the resolution mechanics themselves.  4e's scene-based resolution framework means that (rather than singular, spell-based power plays reframing or outright solving the scene) multiple decision-points will face the heroes before the scene is resolved and the story's trajectory cemented.2)  Following from the first is the frequency in which the heroes will face a complication and the decision-point tree includes Athletics as a reasonable, if not the right, solution to the micro-problem (within the macro framework of the scene) faced.3)  Following from the second is the fact that Athletics will pretty much 100 % be the forte of a Fighter character;  (a) nearly always trained, (b) synergizing with their primary ability score, (c) easy to get secondary build components to augment it (Fighter Utility Powers, Theme, Background, Items).  Fighters will be auto-passing Medium DCs (the very large majority in SCs) in Athletics and nearing (and meeting with 1/Enc Utility Powers) auto-success at the Hard DC if it comes to that.4)  Following from none of 1-3, but nonetheless pervasive/important in 4e noncombat resolution is the Group Check. The overwhelming majority of these will be Athletics or Endurance (with the others being a stray Acrobatics, Perception, and Stealth), both Fighter commodities in Skills and Ability Scores.  The Fighter PC in a group will inevitably serve as "the anchor" for the group's chance at success due to this.5)  Unrelated to any of 1-4 (and noncombat), but related to the potency of the Fighter's Skill portfolio is how  the Athletics skill interfaces with the Terrain Stunting and Hazard/Trap system.  The heavy, heavy bulk of Terrain Powers and Countermeasures against the wilderness Hazard and Trap system will entail deployment of Athletics.  Many of the Hazard/Trap Countermeasures that don't involve Athletics will involve Endurance!6)  Unrelated to any 1-5 (but noncombat) is the Disease (Condition) Track.  Nearly all effects will require Endurance to move up the track/escape from the debilitating effects of the condition/disease imposed upon the PC.A few years ago, I did a study on this (some here may recall this) over the course of about 8 sessions of play.  These sessions spanned all manner of play from ruin delving, to wilderness survival, to parlay, to infil/exfil, to combat with hazards.  I collated the data and posted the results.  Out of all of the deployed Skills (including Passive Perception even though it is merely tested), Athletics was by far the highest frequency Skill deployed, with several in the Rogue portfolio (despite having a Rogue player of the 3 PCs) seeing a comparatively much smaller number of deployments.  So while the Rogue had a large number of Skills, the decision-points that will emerge naturally through play that will call/allow for them (unless specifically tailoring play heavily toward Rogue infil/exfil, espionage-based, or dungeon w/ many mechanized traps scenarios), is much lower frequency due to their more narrow application.  All that being said, if folks are still unconvinced or they (as GMs) or their GMs don't much (or at all) use Group Checks, the Disease Track, the Terrain Stunting system, the Hazard system (I highly, highly recommend against such a 4e-experience-narrowing practice), then they might consider just going the Torchbearer route (which uses Health generally to test most all physical stuff) and roll Endurance and Acrobatics into Athletics (but still use Con and Dex) exclusively for the Fighter.</blockquote>

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