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Simplifying an enemy Gish/Cleric statblock
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<blockquote data-quote="BlastoTheSloth" data-source="post: 8600951" data-attributes="member: 7035686"><p>Just seeing this page without any other context, but I have my thoughts.</p><p></p><p>Wouldn't the whole point of having the bonus action weapon attack be to take more advantage of Crusader's Mantle or Holy Weapon bonuses? Also, seems like the original ideal is to use multiple of these instead of a mixed enemy group, with some dive bombing while there's the one or more staying up in the air laying down ranged spells. Actual Gishing is about mixing spell flinging and weapon swinging, not just being built to enhance weapon attacks with spells.</p><p></p><p>...By the logic of not needing to list their natural weapons, you might as well remove their walking speed. Say they cut their legs off to be able to wear heavier armor. As soon as you remove an option, that'll be when the party suddenly decided to start doing that edge case you weren't expecting and disarm them. Besides, their weapon can be thrown and doesn't magically return, so they could disarm themselves if a situation arose to do so, particularly after you're removing the bulk of their their ranged spell options.</p><p></p><p>I mean, if the changes work for how you intend and want to run them, than that's good, but the original stat block I think definitely could work better if planned around with a different mindset. Like, low base hit chance isn't even so bad the more total attacks that get thrown out, since no matter what there's still that 5% crit chance and the players get to feel rewarded for having high AC against the lower hit enemies. Plus, flight means maybe they try to pick off lower AC targets first, forcing the party to maneuver around that (when using them in mixed enemy teams or not), making lower hit less of a gamble. Plus plus, the Blinded condition/Fairy Fire means they could gain advantage. Plus plus plus, you kinda want the DC lower and the AOE damage spell a higher level resource so you're not overwhelming the party with nukes from multiple of these guys, since they'll mostly still be doing damage while saved against anyway. Higher hit and DCs might being enough to push them past CR6 with what I see them capable of (just because Flame Stike is bad compared to Fireball doesn't mean it isn't scary, the smaller area of effect can even be a good thing in some cases).</p><p></p><p>For instance, say there's four of these guys with the original stat block. Two hang back in the air and cast Holy Weapon on the other two then lay long down range spells (starting with cantrips after buffing if not done preemptively) while those buffed two try Blinding/Fairy Fire the party then dive attack with their bonus actions. After that the two melee for a while with ranged support, if one didn't succeed at debuffing anyone they might pop Crusader's Mantle. When they feel like they're getting to their last legs and if the support casters are still healthy they might disengage or rely on Death Ward to retreat to the sky (the support blowing up the Holy Weapon changes before they do, covering their escape even more) and switch roles with the the two support casters becoming the new front line while they become the new support and maybe patching each other up with their Cure Wounds.</p><p></p><p>This example has many advantages. One, the first time the party deals with it it might be a more brutal fight than they're expecting since the enemy can really drag out the encounter. Two, despite being an extended combat, they have a lot of dynamic options to keep things interesting. Three, if they face a the same formation again, they can think of way to better dismantle it, making it fall apart being very satisfying.</p><p></p><p>Additionally, for lower levels, the original stat block has more going for it to serve as a boss of a weaker squad of foes, staying in the air buffing/debuffing and healing while still getting weapon attacks in to make the War Priest flavor more apparent until the party whittles down the scrubs then presenting a fair challenge on its own. If anything, I say it's missing a more reliable ranged weapon to mix in bonus action attacks with ranged spell casting (even if it's stating they have multiple macahuitl, despite that being a bit weird) instead of going for Spiritual Weapon. The fact that that their weapon buffs work on both melee and ranged attacks is pretty significant. Also would mean them pulling out the different weapons gives the party something to react to.</p><p></p><p>P.S. If you've decided they're prepared for the party, one could have Detect Magic up and be (in a way visable to the party) directing the enemy group on which people in the party seem to have the most threatening magic items or have buffs to dispel. Also, forgetting about Death Ward is unfortunate, but players and DMs constantly forget concentration saves, too. Doesn't mean you do away with concentration. Clairvoyance can be how they know the party is approaching to set up their buffs and ambush (and rewarding if a party member has a way to spot the sensor and know they're being watched). The spell list doesn't need simplifying if there's multiple of these guys working as a unit and all coming together to make up for their weaknesses.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BlastoTheSloth, post: 8600951, member: 7035686"] Just seeing this page without any other context, but I have my thoughts. Wouldn't the whole point of having the bonus action weapon attack be to take more advantage of Crusader's Mantle or Holy Weapon bonuses? Also, seems like the original ideal is to use multiple of these instead of a mixed enemy group, with some dive bombing while there's the one or more staying up in the air laying down ranged spells. Actual Gishing is about mixing spell flinging and weapon swinging, not just being built to enhance weapon attacks with spells. ...By the logic of not needing to list their natural weapons, you might as well remove their walking speed. Say they cut their legs off to be able to wear heavier armor. As soon as you remove an option, that'll be when the party suddenly decided to start doing that edge case you weren't expecting and disarm them. Besides, their weapon can be thrown and doesn't magically return, so they could disarm themselves if a situation arose to do so, particularly after you're removing the bulk of their their ranged spell options. I mean, if the changes work for how you intend and want to run them, than that's good, but the original stat block I think definitely could work better if planned around with a different mindset. Like, low base hit chance isn't even so bad the more total attacks that get thrown out, since no matter what there's still that 5% crit chance and the players get to feel rewarded for having high AC against the lower hit enemies. Plus, flight means maybe they try to pick off lower AC targets first, forcing the party to maneuver around that (when using them in mixed enemy teams or not), making lower hit less of a gamble. Plus plus, the Blinded condition/Fairy Fire means they could gain advantage. Plus plus plus, you kinda want the DC lower and the AOE damage spell a higher level resource so you're not overwhelming the party with nukes from multiple of these guys, since they'll mostly still be doing damage while saved against anyway. Higher hit and DCs might being enough to push them past CR6 with what I see them capable of (just because Flame Stike is bad compared to Fireball doesn't mean it isn't scary, the smaller area of effect can even be a good thing in some cases). For instance, say there's four of these guys with the original stat block. Two hang back in the air and cast Holy Weapon on the other two then lay long down range spells (starting with cantrips after buffing if not done preemptively) while those buffed two try Blinding/Fairy Fire the party then dive attack with their bonus actions. After that the two melee for a while with ranged support, if one didn't succeed at debuffing anyone they might pop Crusader's Mantle. When they feel like they're getting to their last legs and if the support casters are still healthy they might disengage or rely on Death Ward to retreat to the sky (the support blowing up the Holy Weapon changes before they do, covering their escape even more) and switch roles with the the two support casters becoming the new front line while they become the new support and maybe patching each other up with their Cure Wounds. This example has many advantages. One, the first time the party deals with it it might be a more brutal fight than they're expecting since the enemy can really drag out the encounter. Two, despite being an extended combat, they have a lot of dynamic options to keep things interesting. Three, if they face a the same formation again, they can think of way to better dismantle it, making it fall apart being very satisfying. Additionally, for lower levels, the original stat block has more going for it to serve as a boss of a weaker squad of foes, staying in the air buffing/debuffing and healing while still getting weapon attacks in to make the War Priest flavor more apparent until the party whittles down the scrubs then presenting a fair challenge on its own. If anything, I say it's missing a more reliable ranged weapon to mix in bonus action attacks with ranged spell casting (even if it's stating they have multiple macahuitl, despite that being a bit weird) instead of going for Spiritual Weapon. The fact that that their weapon buffs work on both melee and ranged attacks is pretty significant. Also would mean them pulling out the different weapons gives the party something to react to. P.S. If you've decided they're prepared for the party, one could have Detect Magic up and be (in a way visable to the party) directing the enemy group on which people in the party seem to have the most threatening magic items or have buffs to dispel. Also, forgetting about Death Ward is unfortunate, but players and DMs constantly forget concentration saves, too. Doesn't mean you do away with concentration. Clairvoyance can be how they know the party is approaching to set up their buffs and ambush (and rewarding if a party member has a way to spot the sensor and know they're being watched). The spell list doesn't need simplifying if there's multiple of these guys working as a unit and all coming together to make up for their weaknesses. [/QUOTE]
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