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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6301229" data-attributes="member: 87792">I don't think that helps <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />In 4e, the only official&nbsp; 4th level minion Duegar I'm aware of are Duegar Thugs.&nbsp; And Thugs&nbsp; aren't generally people who are trained well or wear good armour.&nbsp; They&nbsp; are hunks of muscle, generally with little training and lightweight&nbsp; equipment, and who intimidate people.&nbsp; By level 2 the PCs have been in&nbsp; more actual fights (as opposed to shakedowns) than any Duegar Thug.&nbsp; If&nbsp; you want Duegar who are well equipped and have been blooded in battle&nbsp; then you can use the Duegar Guard and Duegar Shocktrooper, neither of&nbsp; which is a minion.&nbsp; (There's also a Duegar spellcaster wandering around&nbsp; and almost certainly some Elite, named Duegar in some adventure or&nbsp; other).Or, to put it simply, Level 4 Duegar Thugs are not meant&nbsp; to be used as relative versions of standard Duegar.&nbsp; They are ill&nbsp; trained and ill equipped Duegar as opposed to actual Duegar fighters.&nbsp;&nbsp; In 3.X they would mostly be Commoners and Experts.The minionisation we are talking about, as I said earlier, does not explicitly happen in any&nbsp; official 4e product I am aware of.&nbsp; If you have a Level 10 fighter in&nbsp; 4e fighting a Level 4 Duegar Guard then the odds are the Duegar will be&nbsp; hitting on about an 18 and the fighter will hit on a 2.&nbsp; This leads to&nbsp; an almost pointless amount of dice rolling.&nbsp; The Duegar aren't actually&nbsp; threats to the fighter even if they hit (which they rarely do), and the&nbsp; whole thing is going to be very tedious to play out with the&nbsp; fighter against a handful of Duegar - each one takes 2-3 hits for the&nbsp; fighter to kill, but isn't actually doing much constructive other than&nbsp; by being a threat due to their numbers.&nbsp; At this point they have about&nbsp; as much chance of slowing you down as the Duegar Thugs did when you were&nbsp; level 3.&nbsp; The above fight of level 10 PCs vs a lot of level 4&nbsp; guards is going to be a time consuming excercise in pointlessness.&nbsp; You&nbsp; can leave it as is (the books never say otherwise), you can have the&nbsp; guards run away, or you can minionise, keeping the XP value constant.&nbsp;&nbsp; Which turns the Level 4 Duegar Guards into Level 12 Minion Duegar&nbsp; Guards.&nbsp; You add 8 to their attack bonus and AC (meaning they now hit on&nbsp; a 10 and are hit on a 10) - and tweak their damage slightly (average&nbsp; damage is going to drop from 12 to 10) and, of course, drop their hit&nbsp; points to 1.&nbsp; In neither case are they a threat individually - but with&nbsp; the minion version they are more likely to do something before they&nbsp; drop, but drop faster.&nbsp; The difference in experience is minor.&nbsp; This is&nbsp; all optional and not actually recommended by the rulebooks.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6301229, member: 87792"] I don't think that helps :) In 4e, the only [I]official[/I] 4th level minion Duegar I'm aware of are Duegar Thugs. And Thugs aren't generally people who are trained well or wear good armour. They are hunks of muscle, generally with little training and lightweight equipment, and who intimidate people. By level 2 the PCs have been in more actual fights (as opposed to shakedowns) than any Duegar Thug. If you want Duegar who are well equipped and have been blooded in battle then you can use the Duegar Guard and Duegar Shocktrooper, neither of which is a minion. (There's also a Duegar spellcaster wandering around and almost certainly some Elite, named Duegar in some adventure or other). Or, to put it simply, Level 4 Duegar Thugs are not meant to be used as relative versions of standard Duegar. They are ill trained and ill equipped Duegar as opposed to actual Duegar fighters. In 3.X they would mostly be Commoners and Experts. The minionisation we are talking about, as I said earlier, does not explicitly happen in [I]any[/I] official 4e product I am aware of. If you have a Level 10 fighter in 4e fighting a Level 4 Duegar Guard then the odds are the Duegar will be hitting on about an 18 and the fighter will hit on a 2. This leads to an almost pointless amount of dice rolling. The Duegar aren't actually threats to the fighter even if they hit (which they rarely do), and the whole thing is going to be [I]very[/I] tedious to play out with the fighter against a handful of Duegar - each one takes 2-3 hits for the fighter to kill, but isn't actually doing much constructive other than by being a threat due to their numbers. At this point they have about as much chance of slowing you down as the Duegar Thugs did when you were level 3. The above fight of level 10 PCs vs a lot of level 4 guards is going to be a time consuming excercise in pointlessness. You can leave it as is (the books never say otherwise), you can have the guards run away, or you can minionise, keeping the XP value constant. Which turns the Level 4 Duegar Guards into Level 12 Minion Duegar Guards. You add 8 to their attack bonus and AC (meaning they now hit on a 10 and are hit on a 10) - and tweak their damage slightly (average damage is going to drop from 12 to 10) and, of course, drop their hit points to 1. In neither case are they a threat individually - but with the minion version they are more likely to do something before they drop, but drop faster. The difference in experience is minor. This is all optional and not actually recommended by the rulebooks. [/QUOTE]

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