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<blockquote data-quote="howandwhy99" data-source="post: 6301907" data-attributes="member: 3192">It kills the hobby of D&amp;D and everything dominant in it up until the 21st century. It's turning the hobby of games and RPGs in particular on their head and refusing to treat games as games. To hold that viewpoint myopically makes older games appear poorly designed and confused, namely because they were never designed to be collaborative storytelling in the first place. You mean the game, not the story. I assume storygames may track a few incidentals, but not the quantity what D&amp;D was designed to. (there just more game to it) What's happening in the &quot;story&quot; is irrelevant to D&amp;D as it isn't a story making game.This is an important distinction. The DMG offers DMs guidelines for creating a set of rules to provide a code, a pattern, for players to game. No part of it is &quot;the code&quot; one must use. But a codified rule set must be finalized before play begins just as the referee in Mastermind shouldn't switch around that code once that game has started. Rules as procedures of play are treated become storytelling when performed are still just treated as more pre-set &quot;story you'd like to tell&quot; in the Big Model. From that P.O.V., rules, pens, dice, and the rest all fall under part of the story telling act too.I&quot;m saying games are fundamentally different and not treated as stories on purpose (or anything else people do) so we can actually focus on gameplay and not... well, anything else. That includes storytelling. Can games include storytelling as a component? Sure, why not? (Like how sports focus a great deal on athleticism, yet still make gameplay the focus) But when I bring up that way of including storytelling in games I'm drubbed down again for &quot;misunderstanding&quot; the one true philosophy of games. Games aren't stories, but some folks are incapable of seeing it any other way.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="howandwhy99, post: 6301907, member: 3192"] It kills the hobby of D&D and everything dominant in it up until the 21st century. It's turning the hobby of games and RPGs in particular on their head and refusing to treat games as games. To hold that viewpoint myopically makes older games appear poorly designed and confused, namely because they were never designed to be collaborative storytelling in the first place. You mean the [I]game[/I], [U]not[/U] the story. I assume storygames may track a few incidentals, but not the quantity what D&D was designed to. (there just more [I]game[/I] to it) What's happening in the "story" is irrelevant to D&D as it isn't a story making game. This is an important distinction. The DMG offers DMs guidelines for creating a set of rules to provide a code, a pattern, for players to game. No part of it is "the code" one must use. But a codified rule set must be finalized before play begins just as the referee in Mastermind shouldn't switch around that code once that game has started. Rules as procedures of play are treated become storytelling when performed are still just treated as more pre-set "story you'd like to tell" in the Big Model. From that P.O.V., rules, pens, dice, and the rest all fall under part of the story telling act too. I"m saying games are fundamentally different and not treated as stories on purpose (or anything else people do) so we can actually focus on gameplay and not... well, [I]anything[/I] else. That includes storytelling. Can games include storytelling as a component? Sure, why not? (Like how sports focus a great deal on athleticism, yet still make gameplay the focus) But when I bring up that way of including storytelling in games I'm drubbed down again for "misunderstanding" the one true philosophy of games. Games aren't stories, but some folks are incapable of seeing it any other way. [/QUOTE]

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