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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6302825" data-attributes="member: 87792"><a href="http://www.dndclassics.com/product/17171/DD-Rules-Cyclopedia-Basic?it=1" target="_blank">$9.99 for the pdf on D&amp;D Classics</a>&nbsp; - a bargain.&nbsp; Also there are reasons it's been in the top 10 for a&nbsp; loooong time (If you discount products produced this month, the only&nbsp; things beating it are the Moldvay Red Box and Vault of the Dracolich -&nbsp; first published preview of D&amp;D Next).And it's well worth that $9.99And&nbsp; this is why I consider it a terrible starting point.&nbsp; If I need to hack&nbsp; the game before I can play it I consider that I've bought a defective&nbsp; product.&nbsp;&nbsp; Further I consider that it is incredibly unfriendly to&nbsp; newbies to tell them they need to master the game before they can play&nbsp; it.&nbsp; I want something that runs out of the box.I'd&nbsp; argue about the turning matrix being elegant.&nbsp; The rest?&nbsp; Again I'm&nbsp; going to say Rules Compendium. Which also has the advantage of being a&nbsp; single volume.&nbsp; I certainly am in favour of limiting wizards as much as&nbsp; possible.&nbsp; And in favour of bringing back the lost endgame - at level 10&nbsp; the game changes and you get e.g. a castle.Can I ask just why you think you can define Gygax and Arneson and the games they&nbsp; played and ran to be outside the canon of D&amp;D.&nbsp; D&amp;D arose&nbsp; because Dave Arneson took Braunstein by the short and curlies, and&nbsp; instead of playing his role <a href="http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/104/braunstein-the-roots-of-roleplaying-games/" target="_blank">played that of Student Revolutionary Leader Pretending To Be CIA</a>.&nbsp;&nbsp; Something that required knowledge of the real world and the assumptions&nbsp; of fellow players.&nbsp; His inspiration for creating D&amp;D was doing the&nbsp; opposite of what you claim D&amp;D is about.&nbsp; He then went back to the&nbsp; Castles and Crusades society and started them subverting the game and&nbsp; stepping outside the predefined rules in a way that made Gygax very&nbsp; confused because they were busy stealing each others magic swords rather&nbsp; than going to war as you would expect to happen in a wargame when&nbsp; people are carrying out their assigned roles.&nbsp; Gygax then invited&nbsp; Arneson to visit to demonstrate just what exactly they thought they were&nbsp; doing. (Source: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Playing-at-World-Jon-Peterson/dp/0615642047" target="_blank">Playing at the World</a>).&nbsp;&nbsp; So your &quot;It is about carrying out your assigned role&quot; is directly&nbsp; contradicted by the reasons Arneson invented the early versions of&nbsp; D&amp;D.Gygax on the other hand definitely produced examples&nbsp; that flat out contradict your claim that you can't get better at the&nbsp; game by knowing about the real world.&nbsp; An obvious one (there are others)&nbsp; is the invention of the Ear Trumpet in D&amp;D.&nbsp; In Gygax's&nbsp; games people kept listening at doors, something that slowed the game&nbsp; down.&nbsp; They could do this because the doors were meant to be doors and&nbsp; so sound could pass through them; had Gygax been playing in a strictly&nbsp; gamist manner of the style you advocate he could simply have declared&nbsp; doors to be soundproof.&nbsp; But no - that would have been changing the&nbsp; paradigm of D&amp;D where real world knowledge mattered.&nbsp; (For&nbsp; that matter the players before 1974 often didn't have access to their&nbsp; character sheets and it was all handled behind the screen - Source: Mike&nbsp; Mornard).&nbsp; So what did Gygax do to prevent players listening at doors?&nbsp;&nbsp; He invented the Ear Seeker (source: 1E DMG).&nbsp; A grub that lives in&nbsp; doors and leaps into peoples ears if they try listening at them (source:&nbsp; 1e Monster Manual).&nbsp; So what did the players do?&nbsp; They used their&nbsp; knowledge of real world physics to invent the ear trumpet with a&nbsp; grille in it to catch the ear worms - a solution Gygax found irritating&nbsp; but acceptable.&nbsp; (Source: <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?22566-Q-amp-A-with-Gary-Gygax-Part-I/page5&amp;p=358463&amp;viewfull=1#post358463" target="_blank">Gary Gygax on these boards</a>).&nbsp; Ear trumpets were not a game component put in by Gygax.When&nbsp; your description of the bounds that D&amp;D must fall in doesn't have&nbsp; the space to contain Gygax and Arneson you are doing something wrong.&nbsp;&nbsp; You can play D&amp;D however you like (unless it ends up as FATAL) and no one cares.&nbsp; But when you try to redefine D&amp;D the way you are and say that no other way is D&amp;D everyone who plays it another way has a right to be upset.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6302825, member: 87792"] [URL="http://www.dndclassics.com/product/17171/DD-Rules-Cyclopedia-Basic?it=1"]$9.99 for the pdf on D&D Classics[/URL] - a bargain. Also there are reasons it's been in the top 10 for a loooong time (If you discount products produced this month, the only things beating it are the Moldvay Red Box and Vault of the Dracolich - first published preview of D&D Next). And it's well worth that $9.99 And this is why I consider it a terrible starting point. If I need to hack the game before I can play it I consider that I've bought a defective product. Further I consider that it is incredibly unfriendly to newbies to tell them they need to master the game before they can play it. I want something that runs out of the box. I'd argue about the turning matrix being elegant. The rest? Again I'm going to say Rules Compendium. Which also has the advantage of being a single volume. I certainly am in favour of limiting wizards as much as possible. And in favour of bringing back the lost endgame - at level 10 the game changes and you get e.g. a castle. Can I ask just why you think you can define Gygax and Arneson and the games [I]they[/I] played and ran to be outside the canon of D&D. D&D arose because Dave Arneson took Braunstein by the short and curlies, and instead of playing his role [URL="http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/104/braunstein-the-roots-of-roleplaying-games/"]played that of Student Revolutionary Leader Pretending To Be CIA[/URL]. Something that required knowledge of the real world and the assumptions of fellow players. His inspiration for creating D&D was doing the opposite of what you claim D&D is about. He then went back to the Castles and Crusades society and started them subverting the game and stepping outside the predefined rules in a way that made Gygax very confused because they were busy stealing each others magic swords rather than going to war as you would expect to happen in a wargame when people are carrying out their assigned roles. Gygax then invited Arneson to visit to demonstrate just what exactly they thought they were doing. (Source: [URL="http://www.amazon.com/Playing-at-World-Jon-Peterson/dp/0615642047"]Playing at the World[/URL]). So your "It is about carrying out your assigned role" is directly contradicted by the reasons Arneson invented the early versions of D&D. Gygax on the other hand definitely produced examples that flat out contradict your claim that you can't get better at the game by knowing about the real world. An obvious one (there are others) is the invention of the [I]Ear Trumpet[/I] in D&D. In Gygax's games people kept listening at doors, something that slowed the game down. They could do this because the doors were meant to be doors and so sound could pass through them; had Gygax been playing in a strictly gamist manner of the style you advocate he could simply have declared doors to be soundproof. But no - that would have been changing the paradigm of D&D where real world knowledge [I]mattered[/I]. (For that matter the players before 1974 often didn't have access to their character sheets and it was all handled behind the screen - Source: Mike Mornard). So what did Gygax do to prevent players listening at doors? He invented the Ear Seeker (source: 1E DMG). A grub that lives in doors and leaps into peoples ears if they try listening at them (source: 1e Monster Manual). So what did the players do? They used their knowledge of [I]real world physics [/I]to invent the ear trumpet with a grille in it to catch the ear worms - a solution Gygax found irritating but acceptable. (Source: [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?22566-Q-amp-A-with-Gary-Gygax-Part-I/page5&p=358463&viewfull=1#post358463"]Gary Gygax on these boards[/URL]). Ear trumpets were not a game component put in by Gygax. When your description of the bounds that D&D must fall in doesn't have the space to contain Gygax and Arneson you are doing something wrong. You can play D&D [I]however you like[/I] (unless it ends up as FATAL) and no one cares. But when you try to redefine D&D the way you are [I]and say that no other way is D&D[/I] everyone who plays it another way has a right to be upset. [/QUOTE]

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