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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6303377" data-attributes="member: 22779">Sure, if my player claims that he can sprout wings and fly, then, no, that's a bad player.&nbsp; But, why the automatic assumption of bad play by the players?&nbsp; Have you actually met players you consider to be good players who would do what Bill91 is claiming?&nbsp; Yet, according to Ahneoisis, I could clean up, make a good presentation, and still automatically fail because he has decided, beforehand, that nothing I can do will succeed.&nbsp; THAT'S the issue that I have.Me, I'm assuming good faith by everyone at the table.&nbsp; It seems that Bill91 is the one here assuming bad faith.&nbsp; Players ignoring context within the game would be pretty bad players.&nbsp; But, apparently, it's perfectly acceptable for the DM to simply manipulate the scenario to gain whatever outcome the DM wants, and that's perfectly acceptable?Well, I suppose it is to some groups.&nbsp; To me, it's not.&nbsp; If coming in covered in dirt makes it impossible to see the king, would it still be impossible if I cleaned up and tried again?&nbsp; My basic question is, is there a series of actions the group could attempt which would result in a chance to see the king?&nbsp; If the answer to that is no, then I have no interest in playing that game.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 6303377, member: 22779"] Sure, if my player claims that he can sprout wings and fly, then, no, that's a bad player. But, why the automatic assumption of bad play by the players? Have you actually met players you consider to be good players who would do what Bill91 is claiming? Yet, according to Ahneoisis, I could clean up, make a good presentation, and still automatically fail because he has decided, beforehand, that nothing I can do will succeed. THAT'S the issue that I have. Me, I'm assuming good faith by everyone at the table. It seems that Bill91 is the one here assuming bad faith. Players ignoring context within the game would be pretty bad players. But, apparently, it's perfectly acceptable for the DM to simply manipulate the scenario to gain whatever outcome the DM wants, and that's perfectly acceptable? Well, I suppose it is to some groups. To me, it's not. If coming in covered in dirt makes it impossible to see the king, would it still be impossible if I cleaned up and tried again? My basic question is, is there a series of actions the group could attempt which would result in a chance to see the king? If the answer to that is no, then I have no interest in playing that game. [/QUOTE]

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