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Message: <blockquote data-quote="PrecociousApprentice" data-source="post: 4245996" data-attributes="member: 61449">LostSoul this sounds reasonable. To make it not "illusionist" for nar, all you have to do is make sure that there is actual player protagonism. Since player protagonism is the province of nar, taking it away without revealing or aknowledging that you have will create "illusionist narrativism", which is really simulationism. Actually, i guess I disagree then. Since the province of simulationism is "exploration" or "recreation", if you are unable to "recreate" or "explore" with any fidelity, but you do not aknowledge this, they in reality you are playing an "illusionist simulation". Player protagonism is not a factor in simulationism. There are many hard core sim players that would rather limit protagonism to forward "recreation and exploration with fidelity". This is actually the argument I see most against 4e. I am not sure if this would necessarily make it either gamist or narrativist, but it lessens the simulationist aspects greatly, making it at least incoherent.So really, player agency is not an issue. I guess by railraoding, I meant that the thing that is suposed to create the simulation, namely the rules, is being forced to do so in a certain way outside those rules. It is not player railroading because that is the province of narrativist play, in essence it eliminates narrativist play and creates "illusionist narrativism". The correlate to narrativist railroading for simulationist play is where the agency is taken from the rules, and given to someone else, namely the GM in the form of handwaving and creates "illusionist simulationism".I will need to work on this, but I am starting to think that there is no possibility of a coherent simulationist rules sytem, as defined by GNS. It will all require a significant amount of metagame to create, and not one that is inherent in the world created/explored.</blockquote>

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