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<blockquote data-quote="Scott Christian" data-source="post: 9257204" data-attributes="member: 6901101"><p>We disagree on a dumpable stat. But I will take the minority position here, since most players on this forum seem to only care about an extra +1 in their primary stats, and can't seem to comprehend roleplaying a character that isn't min/maxed in their abilities. But, for the record, I don't think it is a dumpable stat. </p><p></p><p>The rogue is a highest example of it being non-rewarding you can give. And I agree, it does seem <em>slightly</em> unreasonable. Not <em>incredibly unreasonable</em> or <em>insanely unreasonable</em>, but slightly unreasonable. Until you look at the rules...</p><p></p><p>The rules specifically state that you can ask for checks using alternate abilities. I have pointed this out many times. That is why it is only slightly unreasonable. If I have a character, and I sit down at session zero because I know the campaign is going to last over a year, and I ask the DM to work with me because I really want to be able to use animal handling and nature, but can't afford the intelligence stat - my guess is the DM would work with me. I have yet to meet a DM that probably wouldn't just say, use your wisdom for nature.</p><p></p><p>But let's say they didn't. The mean, old DM that refused.</p><p></p><p>I take both skills using background, class or feat. I now have my proficiency bonus. I also use the standard array and put the 14 in wisdom and 12 in intelligence. So the difference at level one between my nature and animal handling is 5%. And the way most DMs handle these checks, that 5% means very little. </p><p></p><p>Now let's take your rogue, which is the strongest example of disparity in this scenario. You place a 12 in strength and your 15 in dexterity. After ASI, your dexterity is at 16 and your strength stays a 12. But you are trained in both skills. This is very easy to do with a rogue as athletics and acrobatics is in their starting class features skill list. You don't even have to sacrifice your choice of a background. And after character creation, what is your difference - 10%. That's it! That is all. You see, your rogue <strong>is</strong> good at athletics. It's just they are 10% better at acrobatics. That mean DM still didn't get one over on you.</p><p></p><p>10%.</p><p></p><p>It is not a gap or flaw in the game rules. It is a choice you make during character creation. There are pros and cons to all the choices. If you insist that your rogue also has to be charismatic instead of strong, then you can make that choice. And guess what, the difference is still only 15%. But the short answer is, you can't have everything. But you can have the thing you're asking for, an athletic and acrobatic rogue, under the present rules system.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Scott Christian, post: 9257204, member: 6901101"] We disagree on a dumpable stat. But I will take the minority position here, since most players on this forum seem to only care about an extra +1 in their primary stats, and can't seem to comprehend roleplaying a character that isn't min/maxed in their abilities. But, for the record, I don't think it is a dumpable stat. The rogue is a highest example of it being non-rewarding you can give. And I agree, it does seem [I]slightly[/I] unreasonable. Not [I]incredibly unreasonable[/I] or [I]insanely unreasonable[/I], but slightly unreasonable. Until you look at the rules... The rules specifically state that you can ask for checks using alternate abilities. I have pointed this out many times. That is why it is only slightly unreasonable. If I have a character, and I sit down at session zero because I know the campaign is going to last over a year, and I ask the DM to work with me because I really want to be able to use animal handling and nature, but can't afford the intelligence stat - my guess is the DM would work with me. I have yet to meet a DM that probably wouldn't just say, use your wisdom for nature. But let's say they didn't. The mean, old DM that refused. I take both skills using background, class or feat. I now have my proficiency bonus. I also use the standard array and put the 14 in wisdom and 12 in intelligence. So the difference at level one between my nature and animal handling is 5%. And the way most DMs handle these checks, that 5% means very little. Now let's take your rogue, which is the strongest example of disparity in this scenario. You place a 12 in strength and your 15 in dexterity. After ASI, your dexterity is at 16 and your strength stays a 12. But you are trained in both skills. This is very easy to do with a rogue as athletics and acrobatics is in their starting class features skill list. You don't even have to sacrifice your choice of a background. And after character creation, what is your difference - 10%. That's it! That is all. You see, your rogue [B]is[/B] good at athletics. It's just they are 10% better at acrobatics. That mean DM still didn't get one over on you. 10%. It is not a gap or flaw in the game rules. It is a choice you make during character creation. There are pros and cons to all the choices. If you insist that your rogue also has to be charismatic instead of strong, then you can make that choice. And guess what, the difference is still only 15%. But the short answer is, you can't have everything. But you can have the thing you're asking for, an athletic and acrobatic rogue, under the present rules system. [/QUOTE]
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