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<blockquote data-quote="Anubis the Doomseer" data-source="post: 1316385" data-attributes="member: 12455">Then don't make the descriptive effect be all about being just a skill buff.&nbsp; A spell that gives you a bonus to Hide actually makes you hard to see/remember - you get a comensurate penalty to things like Intimidate or Diplomacy.&nbsp; Spells that give bonuses to Spot or Search have obvious magical effects on your eyes and other sensory organs.Really skill magic, from a 'within the box' way of thinking is pretty much an expectation.&nbsp; The difference between getting the skill increased through hard work and simply being a mage is that magic is a consumable resource (scrolls, spells per day, potions), it takes time (casting time) to get the bonus, lasts only a short while (one skill roll or a couple of minutes) and is not entirely reliable (dispels, anti-magic, magic dead zones, wild magic, etc).My suggestion is to make spell chains - limit the duration, the circumstances and the outright bonuses at various spell levels.&nbsp; This way a single level one spell will not outshine the Rogue/Expert with ranks, feats, etc.Do something like this, at level 1 the spell gives a +5 bonus to a skill roll, but the circumstances are quite specific and there may even be a downside to it (penalties to other checks, vulnerabilities to special forms of attacks, etc).&nbsp; Then make another spell, perhaps level 1 but likely level 2 that only gives +1 skill bonus per level (to a maximum of +10) but has less situational restrictions.&nbsp; At level 3 or 4 make a &quot;greater&quot; or &quot;improved&quot; version fo the skill booster that simply ups the maximum bonus (much like how healing spells do it), other spells at this level keep the bonus fairly low but allow multiple targets for the effect (Eagle Eyes, Mass - gives 1 subject/level a +8 racial bonus to spot checks for instance).&nbsp; To keep with the &quot;fantastic&quot; nature of things we could go with slightly altered illusionary magic - creating an illusionary self thatautmoatically &quot;aids&quot; your skill checks (+2 to your roll).&nbsp; I can see summoning various minor spirits (1 HD outsiders with skill focus feat and a level of expert) doing much the same thing for summoners.The idea is to not front load the concept of skill bonuses, but instead give setting and tone appropriate bonuses.&nbsp; They will hardly dominate the game, and deciding to go &quot;wizard&quot; to pick them up now has less of an attraction (since to really get the best spells you have to devote several levels of a non-optimal class to get them).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Anubis the Doomseer, post: 1316385, member: 12455"] Then don't make the descriptive effect be all about being just a skill buff. A spell that gives you a bonus to Hide actually makes you hard to see/remember - you get a comensurate penalty to things like Intimidate or Diplomacy. Spells that give bonuses to Spot or Search have obvious magical effects on your eyes and other sensory organs. Really skill magic, from a 'within the box' way of thinking is pretty much an expectation. The difference between getting the skill increased through hard work and simply being a mage is that magic is a consumable resource (scrolls, spells per day, potions), it takes time (casting time) to get the bonus, lasts only a short while (one skill roll or a couple of minutes) and is not entirely reliable (dispels, anti-magic, magic dead zones, wild magic, etc). My suggestion is to make spell chains - limit the duration, the circumstances and the outright bonuses at various spell levels. This way a single level one spell will not outshine the Rogue/Expert with ranks, feats, etc. Do something like this, at level 1 the spell gives a +5 bonus to a skill roll, but the circumstances are quite specific and there may even be a downside to it (penalties to other checks, vulnerabilities to special forms of attacks, etc). Then make another spell, perhaps level 1 but likely level 2 that only gives +1 skill bonus per level (to a maximum of +10) but has less situational restrictions. At level 3 or 4 make a "greater" or "improved" version fo the skill booster that simply ups the maximum bonus (much like how healing spells do it), other spells at this level keep the bonus fairly low but allow multiple targets for the effect (Eagle Eyes, Mass - gives 1 subject/level a +8 racial bonus to spot checks for instance). To keep with the "fantastic" nature of things we could go with slightly altered illusionary magic - creating an illusionary self thatautmoatically "aids" your skill checks (+2 to your roll). I can see summoning various minor spirits (1 HD outsiders with skill focus feat and a level of expert) doing much the same thing for summoners. The idea is to not front load the concept of skill bonuses, but instead give setting and tone appropriate bonuses. They will hardly dominate the game, and deciding to go "wizard" to pick them up now has less of an attraction (since to really get the best spells you have to devote several levels of a non-optimal class to get them). [/QUOTE]

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