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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dungeoneer" data-source="post: 5456533" data-attributes="member: 91777">GameDoc, I entirely get what you're saying about the difficulties of making skill challenges flow narratively.I like Skill Challenges a lot, at least conceptually.  I've also run some really successful and enjoyable ones.  And I've run some that were... not so much.  SCs make a certain intuitive sense to me, but they definitely don't work equally well in all situations.  I think the failing of the Skill Challenge system as presented in 4e is that it's too generalized.The basic system of successes and failures is a great fit for some scenarios, but you really have to stretch it for others.  For instance, one of the classic examples of an SC is trying to persuade a high-ranking NPC to do something.  But actually this doesn't make much sense to me (and I think a lot of people) as an SC and I wouldn't even begin to know how to run one.  In a real persuasion situation, you have to identify what the other party really wants and find a way to satisfy that.  You don't just batter them with arguments until they give in.  Skill Challenges don't model this very well, IMHO.What I would like to see are more specific versions of skill challenges that suit different scenarios.  Maybe a special system of diplomacy skill challenges, for starters.  The kinds of scenarios where Skill Challenges not only work really well as written but also flow narratively are those where players need to perform an action repeatedly with a time limit.  Some examples of this include disarming a bomb; stopping a ritual; performing a ritual; piloting a vehicle and escaping from an especially elaborate trap.For instance with the ritual SC you can have your wizard performing arcana checks while the other players use their creativity to keep Bad Stuff from happening and finding ways to aid him or her.  There's no mystery to the primary skill (arcana, duh) but there's a lot of built in tension as the party pulls together to make it happen and fight off interdimensional bats or whatever.  For that kind of scenario the success/failure mechanic is really intuitive, the skill checks you need are explicit, and player creativity is encouraged.  Plus, it makes for a really tense skill challenge!Another scenario that's a pretty good fit for the SC system as written is one where the scene is progressing through different phases, i.e. Tthe Chase Scene'.  In this scenario each round something different happens and the players have to figure out a way to deal with it.  One example which I've run before is escaping from the BBEG's fortress while it is magically self-destructing all around them.  First they have to dodge falling masonry, then they have to fend off a band of fleeing goblins, then they have to jump over a yawning crevice, etc.  In this example, though, if you want failure to be something other than a TPK you need a resource to deplete.  Healing surges are a common one, although you could come up with others (I've found that Dark Sun 4e's idea of 'survival days' makes a great resource).Of course this is kind of a special case version of the Skill Challenge framework.  I think it would help a lot of DMs out if the case was made explicit.  Overland travel is another potential Skill Challenge scenario that has its own special requirements.  You want player resources to deplete, but in this case you also want to vary the penalty for failure.  Having a party of kobolds show up every time the party fails a check in the wilderness could get a bit dull.The point is that the DMG makes it sound like you can and should use Skill Challenges for everything that happens outside of combat.  In actual practice, there are a few specific types of scenarios where Skill Challenges work really well and a whole host where they don't (or at least where they need heavy modification first).  Knowing which is which requires some experience with them.  It's too bad that there isn't more published material to help DMs out in this regard.</blockquote>

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