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<blockquote data-quote="ravenight" data-source="post: 4311357" data-attributes="member: 69229">I do like the idea of failure forgiveness, but I think the complexity+1 metric still has the problem of not actually increasing the difficulty based on complexity (the difficulty stays flat assuming there is no player skill to the challenge that would improve with a longer challenge).Below is a perl script I wrote to simulate skill challenges. The easiest things to tweak are at the parameters at the top and the function calls at the bottom (the variables are number of trials, successes for victory, failures for loss). Hopefully the comments make it clear what each things does: the basic idea is that some number of checks are primary and some number are secondary - primary checks give official successes and failures, secondary ones give a stacking +2 to the next primary. Which checks are secondary or primary is determined at random.You can control the DCs by changing the values pushed into the check_DC_distribution array (you can push as many as you want). So if you want the DCs that are possible to be 15, 17, 23 and 24, you just push each of those onto the array and it chooses one at random. I think this simulator may slightly underestimate the PCs chances of success, because it doesn't allow them to tend towards repeating easy checks and avoiding harder ones, nor does it account for the fact that if I've got +11 in stealth and there's a DC 13 stealth check, then it will always come up as my +11 vs. the DC 13 (it instead randomly shuffles skill values and check DCs based on the distributions). It also allows the same skill to make both secondary and primary checks. I don't think these assumptions are actually that bad but they assume a bit of malleability of challenges that may not always be the case.Hopefully this is useful to some people with perl interpreters (you can get one free from activestate, though I wouldn't recommend running any code you find on some forum post unless you understand what it does).[code]#****Defined Parameters****#**Skill bonuses for trained skills$lowskill_bonus = 8;$highskill_bonus = 11;#**Percentage of trained skills that use $lowskill_bonus$lowskill_percent = (2/3);#**Ratio of primary skill checks vs. secondary skill checks$primary_ratio = (1/2);#**Parameters for secondary skill checks$secondary_bonus = 2;$secondary_DC_increase = 0;#**Parameters for DM granting a &quot;best friend&quot; bonus$DMsBestFriend_chance = 0.25;$DMsBestFriend_bonus = 2;#**Distribution of DCs for all skill checkspush(@check_DC_distribution, 15);push(@check_DC_distribution, 15);push(@check_DC_distribution, 15);#****Main Loop****sub simSkillChallenge {&nbsp; &nbsp; my ($num_iterations, $max_successes, $max_failures) = @_;&nbsp; &nbsp; my $failed = 0;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; my $check_DC_sum = 0;&nbsp; &nbsp; my $check_DC_iters = 0;&nbsp; &nbsp; for($i = 0; $i &lt; $num_iterations; $i++) {&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; my $successes = 0;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; my $failures = 0;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; my $previous_bonus = 0;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; while($successes &lt; $max_successes) {&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #determine player's base bonus&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; my $player_bonus = 0;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; my $skill = rand();&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; if($skill &lt; $lowskill_percent) {&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $player_bonus = $lowskill_bonus;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; } else {&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $player_bonus = $highskill_bonus;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #DMs best friend modifier&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; my $DMroll = rand();&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; if($DMroll &lt; $DMsBestFriend_chance) {&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $player_bonus += $DMsBestFriend_bonus;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #print &quot;Got a DMs Best Friend! (now at \+$player_bonus)\n&quot;;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #Determine primary or secondary check&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; my $isprimary = 0;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; my $primary_roll = rand();&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; if($primary_roll &lt; $primary_ratio) {$isprimary = 1;}&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #select check's DC&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; my $check_index = int(rand(@check_DC_distribution));&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #print &quot;Check index: $check_index\t@check_DC_distribution\n&quot;;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; my $check_DC = $check_DC_distribution[$check_index];&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #calculations to verify check DCs&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $check_DC_sum += $check_DC;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $check_DC_iters++;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #apply adjustment for secondary checks&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; if($isprimary) {&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #Apply bonus from previous secondary checks&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $player_bonus += $previous_bonus;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $previous_bonus = 0;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; } else {&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $check_DC += $secondary_DC_increase;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #make the roll and adjudicate results&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; my $player_roll = int(rand(20));&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $player_roll += $player_bonus;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #print &quot;Roll: $player_roll, isprimary: $isprimary\n&quot;;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; if($player_roll &gt;= $check_DC) {&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; if($isprimary == 1) {&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $successes++;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #print &quot;Success!\n&quot;;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; } else {&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $previous_bonus += $secondary_bonus;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #print &quot;Got a secondary bonus!\n&quot;;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; } else {&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; if($isprimary == 1) {&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $failures++;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #print &quot;Failure!\n&quot;;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; if($failures &gt;= $max_failures) {&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $failed++;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; $successes = $max_successes;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #print &quot;Lost the Challenge!\n&quot;;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; if($failures &lt; $max_failures) {&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; #print &quot;Won the Challenge!\n&quot;;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }&nbsp; &nbsp; }&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; my $failed_percent = 100 * $failed / $num_iterations;&nbsp; &nbsp; my $check_DC_average = $check_DC_sum / $check_DC_iters;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; print &quot;\nOf $num_iterations tries, $failed were failures ($failed_percent %)\nAverage DC: $check_DC_average\n&quot;;}print &quot;Complexity 2:\t&quot;;simSkillChallenge(10000, 6, 4);print &quot;Complexity 5:\t&quot;;simSkillChallenge(10000, 12, 4)[/code]</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ravenight, post: 4311357, member: 69229"] I do like the idea of failure forgiveness, but I think the complexity+1 metric still has the problem of not actually increasing the difficulty based on complexity (the difficulty stays flat assuming there is no player skill to the challenge that would improve with a longer challenge). Below is a perl script I wrote to simulate skill challenges. The easiest things to tweak are at the parameters at the top and the function calls at the bottom (the variables are number of trials, successes for victory, failures for loss). Hopefully the comments make it clear what each things does: the basic idea is that some number of checks are primary and some number are secondary - primary checks give official successes and failures, secondary ones give a stacking +2 to the next primary. Which checks are secondary or primary is determined at random. You can control the DCs by changing the values pushed into the check_DC_distribution array (you can push as many as you want). So if you want the DCs that are possible to be 15, 17, 23 and 24, you just push each of those onto the array and it chooses one at random. I think this simulator may slightly underestimate the PCs chances of success, because it doesn't allow them to tend towards repeating easy checks and avoiding harder ones, nor does it account for the fact that if I've got +11 in stealth and there's a DC 13 stealth check, then it will always come up as my +11 vs. the DC 13 (it instead randomly shuffles skill values and check DCs based on the distributions). It also allows the same skill to make both secondary and primary checks. I don't think these assumptions are actually that bad but they assume a bit of malleability of challenges that may not always be the case. Hopefully this is useful to some people with perl interpreters (you can get one free from activestate, though I wouldn't recommend running any code you find on some forum post unless you understand what it does). [code] #****Defined Parameters**** #**Skill bonuses for trained skills $lowskill_bonus = 8; $highskill_bonus = 11; #**Percentage of trained skills that use $lowskill_bonus $lowskill_percent = (2/3); #**Ratio of primary skill checks vs. secondary skill checks $primary_ratio = (1/2); #**Parameters for secondary skill checks $secondary_bonus = 2; $secondary_DC_increase = 0; #**Parameters for DM granting a "best friend" bonus $DMsBestFriend_chance = 0.25; $DMsBestFriend_bonus = 2; #**Distribution of DCs for all skill checks push(@check_DC_distribution, 15); push(@check_DC_distribution, 15); push(@check_DC_distribution, 15); #****Main Loop**** sub simSkillChallenge { my ($num_iterations, $max_successes, $max_failures) = @_; my $failed = 0; my $check_DC_sum = 0; my $check_DC_iters = 0; for($i = 0; $i < $num_iterations; $i++) { my $successes = 0; my $failures = 0; my $previous_bonus = 0; while($successes < $max_successes) { #determine player's base bonus my $player_bonus = 0; my $skill = rand(); if($skill < $lowskill_percent) { $player_bonus = $lowskill_bonus; } else { $player_bonus = $highskill_bonus; } #DMs best friend modifier my $DMroll = rand(); if($DMroll < $DMsBestFriend_chance) { $player_bonus += $DMsBestFriend_bonus; #print "Got a DMs Best Friend! (now at \+$player_bonus)\n"; } #Determine primary or secondary check my $isprimary = 0; my $primary_roll = rand(); if($primary_roll < $primary_ratio) {$isprimary = 1;} #select check's DC my $check_index = int(rand(@check_DC_distribution)); #print "Check index: $check_index\t@check_DC_distribution\n"; my $check_DC = $check_DC_distribution[$check_index]; #calculations to verify check DCs $check_DC_sum += $check_DC; $check_DC_iters++; #apply adjustment for secondary checks if($isprimary) { #Apply bonus from previous secondary checks $player_bonus += $previous_bonus; $previous_bonus = 0; } else { $check_DC += $secondary_DC_increase; } #make the roll and adjudicate results my $player_roll = int(rand(20)); $player_roll += $player_bonus; #print "Roll: $player_roll, isprimary: $isprimary\n"; if($player_roll >= $check_DC) { if($isprimary == 1) { $successes++; #print "Success!\n"; } else { $previous_bonus += $secondary_bonus; #print "Got a secondary bonus!\n"; } } else { if($isprimary == 1) { $failures++; #print "Failure!\n"; } } if($failures >= $max_failures) { $failed++; $successes = $max_successes; #print "Lost the Challenge!\n"; } } if($failures < $max_failures) { #print "Won the Challenge!\n"; } } my $failed_percent = 100 * $failed / $num_iterations; my $check_DC_average = $check_DC_sum / $check_DC_iters; print "\nOf $num_iterations tries, $failed were failures ($failed_percent %)\nAverage DC: $check_DC_average\n"; } print "Complexity 2:\t"; simSkillChallenge(10000, 6, 4); print "Complexity 5:\t"; simSkillChallenge(10000, 12, 4)[/code] [/QUOTE]

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