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<blockquote data-quote="FireLance" data-source="post: 5060376" data-attributes="member: 3424"><p>I think this could work out to be quite an interesting encounter, but I also see the potential for a couple of problems.</p><p></p><p>The first, and more minor one, is that the skills that can be used seem rather restricted. I would allow more skills to be used to earn successes, but I would limit the number of successes that can be earned with those skills to compensate.</p><p></p><p>The second, and perhaps more major one, is that the final negotiation skill challenge can wind up simply being a dice rolling exercise by the player whose character has the highest Diplomacy or Intimidate score due to the sheer number of successes (12) that is required.</p><p></p><p>I would actually structure this as a multi-stage non-combat encounter comprising several Complexity 1 skill challenges, as follows (unless stated otherwise, all checks are at Moderate difficulty):</p><p></p><p><strong>Stage One: Information Gathering</strong></p><p>The PCs may attempt to find out as much as they can before they even leave their base of operations. I have a theory that <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/blogs/firelance/2194-musings-non-combat-challenges-four-more.html" target="_blank">there are only four basic types of non-combat challenges</a>, and I would consider this a basic Learn challenge.</p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Potentially Useful Skills:</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">History (maximum 1 success): As you mentioned, searching through historical records to discover where the monsters were seen in the past.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Monster Knowledge Check (specific skill depends on monster type, maximum 1 success): Using knowledge of the monster to narrow down the likely locations.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Streetwise (no maximum, but increase difficulty to Hard after 2 successes): Attempting to track down eyewitness accounts of the monsters' current location.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Failure Conditions:</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The standard three failures model applies. A failure represents inaccurate information which creates problems for the PCs.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Automatic Successes?</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Don't forget to consider the impact of rituals such as <em>commune with nature</em>. To simplify matters, you may rule that each question asked through the use of this ritual may be used to gain one success or negate one failure.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Constraints:</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">In order to prevent a small number of PCs with high skill modifiers in the relevant skills from monopolizing the challenge, impose a small cost for each subsequent action by the same character: perhaps the PCs have to pay for lodging while they are in town, or the townsfolk get impatient that the PCs are wasting time instead of working on the problem.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Moving On:</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Once the PCs have succeeded or failed the challenge, subsequent checks reveal no additional information. Succeeding at the skill challenge grants one automatic success for the next stage, while failing the skill challenge imposes one automatic failure. The PCs may skip this stage and move on directly to Stage Two by starting a physical search for the monsters immediately. If so, make Stage Two a Complexity 2 skill challenge instead. If the PCs partially complete this stage before moving on to Stage Two, make Stage Two a Complexity 2 skill challenge and if the PCs have earned more successes than failures, give them a number of automatic successes equal to the difference. If the PCs have more failures than success, add the difference to the successes required.</p><p><strong>Stage Two: Physical Search</strong></p><p>The PCs start physically searching for the monsters without attracting their attention. I would consider this another Learn challenge with a Move sub-challenge.</p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Potentially Useful Skills:</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Monster Knowledge Check (specific skill depends on monster type, maximum 1 success per "turn"): Using knowledge of the monsters to find physical evidence of their presence.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Perception (no maximum): Searching for tracks and trails and other clues to the monsters' location. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Stealth: See Failure Conditions, below.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Failure Conditions:</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Instead of the standard three failures model, the PCs do not accumulate failures for failing Monster Knowledge or Perception checks. Instead, each PC must make a Stealth check at the end of each "turn". The PCs gain one failure each time more than half of the PCs fail Stealth checks.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Automatic Successes?</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Rituals such as <em>commune with nature</em> may be used to gain successes.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Constraints:</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The group Stealth check and lack of consequences for failed monster knowledge and Perception checks should be sufficient to encourage participation from all the PCs.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Moving On:</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">If the PCs fail the challenge, the monsters surprise them and have a low opinion of them. The PCs must earn an additional success to overcome each of the subsequent challenges. If the PCs succeed, they impress the monsters and gain an automatic success in each of the subsequent challenges.</p><p><strong>Stage Three: The Hostile Faction</strong></p><p>A faction within the monsters hostile to the PCs urges their comrades to attack them. I would consider this a Persuade challenge.</p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Potentially Useful Skills:</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Insight (maximum 1 success): Attempting to sense what would make the agressors back down.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Monster Knowledge Check (specific skill depends on monster type, maximum 1 success): Using knowledge of the monsters to play on their fears.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Intimidate (no maximum): Making threats to cow the monsters. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Bluff (Hard check, no maximum): Making the party out to be more dangerous than they are.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Failure Conditions:</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The standard three failures model applies. In addition, at the end of each turn in which the PCs do not earn a success, they earn an automatic failure as the hostile faction turns the monsters against the PCs. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Automatic Successes?</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">A sufficiently impressive daily power may be used to earn an automatic success. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Constraints:</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The PCs who have not yet acted should be made aware that the mood of the monsters is turning against them if all the other PCs have failed their checks in the current turn.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Moving On:</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">If the PCs fail the challenge, the hostile faction persuades the rest of the monsters to attack. If the PCs succeed, they shout down the hostile faction for now and may continue to negotiate with the monsters.</p><p><strong>Stage Four: The Pragmatic Faction</strong></p><p>The more pragmatic monsters demand to know how they would benefit from any deal. I would also consider this a Persuade challenge.</p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Potentially Useful Skills:</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Diplomacy (no maximum): The difficulty of the Diplomacy check depends on the proposed benefits to the monsters. Essentially no benefits could require a Hard check or result in an automatic failure. Excellent benefits could require an Easy check or result in an automatic success.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Insight (maximum 1 success): Attempting to sense what would would be the most persuasive arguments.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Monster Knowledge Check (specific skill depends on monster type, maximum 1 success): Using knowledge of the monsters to discover what they would want.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Intimidate (Hard, no maximum): Making threats to get the monsters to agree. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Failure Conditions:</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The standard three failures model applies. In addition, at the end of each turn in which the PCs do not earn a success, they earn an automatic failure as the hostile faction turns the monsters against the PCs. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Automatic Successes?</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">As mentioned, a good deal for the monsters may result in an automatic success. </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Constraints:</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The PCs who have not yet acted should be made aware that the mood of the monsters is turning against them if all the other PCs have failed their checks in the current turn.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><u>Moving On:</u></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">If the PCs fail the challenge, the pragmatic faction sees no benefit in a deal and the monsters attack.</p><p>Note that if you are meticulous about counting XP, this series of challenges only grants XP equivalent to about four standard monsters. If you want the PCs to earn more XP, at this stage you could have the hostile faction attack anyway (most of the monsters would not attack, so this would be an easy battle) or the pragmatic faction asks the PCs to seal the deal by doing them a favor: slaying another monster that has been harassing them, or performing another task which could require the PCs to engage in another skill challenge.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FireLance, post: 5060376, member: 3424"] I think this could work out to be quite an interesting encounter, but I also see the potential for a couple of problems. The first, and more minor one, is that the skills that can be used seem rather restricted. I would allow more skills to be used to earn successes, but I would limit the number of successes that can be earned with those skills to compensate. The second, and perhaps more major one, is that the final negotiation skill challenge can wind up simply being a dice rolling exercise by the player whose character has the highest Diplomacy or Intimidate score due to the sheer number of successes (12) that is required. I would actually structure this as a multi-stage non-combat encounter comprising several Complexity 1 skill challenges, as follows (unless stated otherwise, all checks are at Moderate difficulty): [B]Stage One: Information Gathering[/B] The PCs may attempt to find out as much as they can before they even leave their base of operations. I have a theory that [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/blogs/firelance/2194-musings-non-combat-challenges-four-more.html"]there are only four basic types of non-combat challenges[/URL], and I would consider this a basic Learn challenge. [INDENT][U]Potentially Useful Skills:[/U] History (maximum 1 success): As you mentioned, searching through historical records to discover where the monsters were seen in the past. Monster Knowledge Check (specific skill depends on monster type, maximum 1 success): Using knowledge of the monster to narrow down the likely locations. Streetwise (no maximum, but increase difficulty to Hard after 2 successes): Attempting to track down eyewitness accounts of the monsters' current location. [U]Failure Conditions:[/U] The standard three failures model applies. A failure represents inaccurate information which creates problems for the PCs. [U]Automatic Successes?[/U] Don't forget to consider the impact of rituals such as [I]commune with nature[/I]. To simplify matters, you may rule that each question asked through the use of this ritual may be used to gain one success or negate one failure. [U]Constraints:[/U] In order to prevent a small number of PCs with high skill modifiers in the relevant skills from monopolizing the challenge, impose a small cost for each subsequent action by the same character: perhaps the PCs have to pay for lodging while they are in town, or the townsfolk get impatient that the PCs are wasting time instead of working on the problem. [U]Moving On:[/U] Once the PCs have succeeded or failed the challenge, subsequent checks reveal no additional information. Succeeding at the skill challenge grants one automatic success for the next stage, while failing the skill challenge imposes one automatic failure. The PCs may skip this stage and move on directly to Stage Two by starting a physical search for the monsters immediately. If so, make Stage Two a Complexity 2 skill challenge instead. If the PCs partially complete this stage before moving on to Stage Two, make Stage Two a Complexity 2 skill challenge and if the PCs have earned more successes than failures, give them a number of automatic successes equal to the difference. If the PCs have more failures than success, add the difference to the successes required.[/INDENT] [B]Stage Two: Physical Search[/B] The PCs start physically searching for the monsters without attracting their attention. I would consider this another Learn challenge with a Move sub-challenge. [INDENT][U]Potentially Useful Skills:[/U] Monster Knowledge Check (specific skill depends on monster type, maximum 1 success per "turn"): Using knowledge of the monsters to find physical evidence of their presence. Perception (no maximum): Searching for tracks and trails and other clues to the monsters' location. Stealth: See Failure Conditions, below. [U]Failure Conditions:[/U] Instead of the standard three failures model, the PCs do not accumulate failures for failing Monster Knowledge or Perception checks. Instead, each PC must make a Stealth check at the end of each "turn". The PCs gain one failure each time more than half of the PCs fail Stealth checks. [U]Automatic Successes?[/U] Rituals such as [I]commune with nature[/I] may be used to gain successes. [U]Constraints:[/U] The group Stealth check and lack of consequences for failed monster knowledge and Perception checks should be sufficient to encourage participation from all the PCs. [U]Moving On:[/U] If the PCs fail the challenge, the monsters surprise them and have a low opinion of them. The PCs must earn an additional success to overcome each of the subsequent challenges. If the PCs succeed, they impress the monsters and gain an automatic success in each of the subsequent challenges.[/INDENT] [B]Stage Three: The Hostile Faction[/B] A faction within the monsters hostile to the PCs urges their comrades to attack them. I would consider this a Persuade challenge. [INDENT][U]Potentially Useful Skills:[/U] Insight (maximum 1 success): Attempting to sense what would make the agressors back down. Monster Knowledge Check (specific skill depends on monster type, maximum 1 success): Using knowledge of the monsters to play on their fears. Intimidate (no maximum): Making threats to cow the monsters. Bluff (Hard check, no maximum): Making the party out to be more dangerous than they are. [U]Failure Conditions:[/U] The standard three failures model applies. In addition, at the end of each turn in which the PCs do not earn a success, they earn an automatic failure as the hostile faction turns the monsters against the PCs. [U]Automatic Successes?[/U] A sufficiently impressive daily power may be used to earn an automatic success. [U]Constraints:[/U] The PCs who have not yet acted should be made aware that the mood of the monsters is turning against them if all the other PCs have failed their checks in the current turn. [U]Moving On:[/U] If the PCs fail the challenge, the hostile faction persuades the rest of the monsters to attack. If the PCs succeed, they shout down the hostile faction for now and may continue to negotiate with the monsters.[/INDENT] [B]Stage Four: The Pragmatic Faction[/B] The more pragmatic monsters demand to know how they would benefit from any deal. I would also consider this a Persuade challenge. [INDENT][U]Potentially Useful Skills:[/U] Diplomacy (no maximum): The difficulty of the Diplomacy check depends on the proposed benefits to the monsters. Essentially no benefits could require a Hard check or result in an automatic failure. Excellent benefits could require an Easy check or result in an automatic success. Insight (maximum 1 success): Attempting to sense what would would be the most persuasive arguments. Monster Knowledge Check (specific skill depends on monster type, maximum 1 success): Using knowledge of the monsters to discover what they would want. Intimidate (Hard, no maximum): Making threats to get the monsters to agree. [U]Failure Conditions:[/U] The standard three failures model applies. In addition, at the end of each turn in which the PCs do not earn a success, they earn an automatic failure as the hostile faction turns the monsters against the PCs. [U]Automatic Successes?[/U] As mentioned, a good deal for the monsters may result in an automatic success. [U]Constraints:[/U] The PCs who have not yet acted should be made aware that the mood of the monsters is turning against them if all the other PCs have failed their checks in the current turn. [U]Moving On:[/U] If the PCs fail the challenge, the pragmatic faction sees no benefit in a deal and the monsters attack.[/INDENT]Note that if you are meticulous about counting XP, this series of challenges only grants XP equivalent to about four standard monsters. If you want the PCs to earn more XP, at this stage you could have the hostile faction attack anyway (most of the monsters would not attack, so this would be an easy battle) or the pragmatic faction asks the PCs to seal the deal by doing them a favor: slaying another monster that has been harassing them, or performing another task which could require the PCs to engage in another skill challenge. [/QUOTE]
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