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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8734577" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Ok, I was right.I thought that is what you were putting forth; that conflict resolution mechanics are arbitrary things that are inherently not associated with the imagined space and cannot be associated with the imagined space.This is basically "dissociated mechanics redux."With respect..."no."  It wasn't true then and its not true now.  And if it is true now or if its been true ever...then D&D is the mother load of this problem with Hit Points ("you're telling me I can't just kill this dude...I just stabbed him in the face!!!!1111!") and so many other aspects of its system architecture.So you say Blades in the Dark Progress Clocks are "ok" (how...I don't know) presumably because your sense is that they either (a) are inherently associated with the imagined space or (b) can trivially be associated with the imagined space and (c) presumably in a way that Skill Challenges cannot be.  Can you engage with the below question because I'm really curious how you've built out your working model for this without getting ensnared along the way.  Talk to me about "inherent association with the imagined space" or "inability to be associated with the imagined space in each of them, if you would be so kind to indulge me:1) BLADES:  I've got a Master Rook (con artist, spy, socialite) NPC in Blades in the Dark that is Quality 3.  The players have done the heavy lifting to pursue a Social Score with this NPC.  Its going to see a whole lot of Desperate Position and Limited Effect because of their Tier and Quality relative to the Quality of this NPC.  They're also going to be straight up "eating" Desperate or Risky social Complications (that they can Resist) because that is how Master NPCs work in Blades.  I mechanize the challenge as follows:* Linked Clocks of Mission Clock 4 to "Remove Their Guard" and a Tug of War 8 Clock to "Convince the NPC" which starts at 3 and the PCs have to get it to the zenith (8) before the NPC gets it to the nadir (0).  So first they have to defeat the 4 Ticks of the first Clock to engage with the back-and-forth of the 2nd Clock.I'm framing the scene based on the engagement roll > action > consequence/new framing > action > consequence/new framing.4e:  Exactly the same situation as above except sub out the mechanical intricacies of Blades for 4e.  This is a highly capable NPC within a Social Conflict so in 4e this is represented by (a) Level of Skill Challenge and (b) Complexity (as tasks become more complex, the mathematical prospects of winning goes down).  I decide upon PC level + 3 (which is going to bring every DC up from 1 to 3 depending upon PC level) and Complexity 4 (which is going to give me 3 Hard DCs to throw at the players...and those DCs will be increased due to level).  I'm basically doing exactly as above.  The initial part of the challenge will be framed around "taking the NPC guard down" so they're amenable to subsequent overtures while the rest will be the back-and-forth of the overtures and complications relating to that.In both cases, I'm GMing roughly the same ethos-and-technique-wise.  I'm framing obstacles to PCs goal > rendering a change in in the fiction (that matches the newly altered gamestate) after the player action > resolution loop takes place.Why is the Blades version of this inherently associated with the fiction while the 4e version is not and is also irredeemably not?  [HR][/HR]I'm just going to stop there, but I can do this exact_same_thing with Opposed Racing Clocks in Blades where you're trying to Escape Pursuit (whatever pursuit might be...it might be Bluecoats/security while you're on a Stealth Score ...or a terrible supernatural storm while you're in The Deathlands on a Transport Score) which matches up seemlessly with a 4e Skill Challenge of x Level and Y Complexity (or even linked Skill Challenges or nested Skill Challenges).  You can do the same thing with a Mission Clock to "Purge the Malevolent Spirit Before its Possession Kills Your Friend" in an Occult Score in Blades that works the exact same way as a Skill Challenge via the Adjure Ritual in 4e...or an "Unlock/Seal the Arcane Gate" in both systems (via Mission Clock or 4e Skill Challenge of Level x and y Complexity).  I can go on like this forever and I've done it in real life because I've got an obscene amount of GMing of both systems and doing exactly this (with zero problems in 4e).But I'd really like to know the answer to the bolded question above.* And as a complete aside...I don't remotely understand the usage of the term "railroad" here.  GM Force is when a GM subordinates a player's tactical, strategic, thematic decisions by imposing the GM's own outcomes upon play.  Railroading is sufficient deployment of Force to pass the table's "Railroad Threshold" lets call it.  This isn't about deploying mechanics of a game system.  If it were about deploying mechanics of a system then just go back to my HP problem for D&D:Player:  "WHAT WHAT WHAT...you're gating their death/"scene staying power" behind Hit Points?  HOW ARE THEY NOT DEAD?  I STABBED THEM IN THEIR STUPID FACE!  THIS HIT POINT CRAP IS TOTAL RAILROADING!"</blockquote>

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