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<blockquote data-quote="Pedantic" data-source="post: 8736210" data-attributes="member: 6690965">Rereading the discussion so far, I wanted to add some further clarity to my position.I've used the phrase &quot;a bad game&quot; a few times, which I want to be very clear I'm trying to apply to the skill challenge framework itself and more specifically, to the mechanical decision making it presents to players. Not to 4e more broadly, or any particular roleplaying game system. Additionally, I mean something very specific by &quot;bad&quot; and &quot;game&quot; here. I'm talking about games in sense Sid Meier described as &quot;an interesting series of decisions,&quot; where a game is an agreement to strive toward a victory condition by making a series of iterated choices and trying to select the option at each choice that most efficiently/effectively achieves the victory condition. &quot;Bad&quot; in the sense that the choices presented by the game framework are trivially easy, or don't have any impact on achieving victory.My issue is with skill challenges as a mechanical framework to resolve player actions, and specifically to the gameplay incentives created thereby, and my use of the word &quot;game&quot; is an attempt to clarify my objections are about mechanical engagement with the rules. I don't have any strong objections to skill challenges as say, a pacing mechanism for improvisational roleplaying of non-combat scenes, but I don't think they lead to an interesting set of mechanical decisions to engage with.Perhaps a broader discussion could be had if that kind of mechanical engagement I'm talking about is something that's expected and/or desirable in roleplaying games, but I certainly think it is, and further that it is possible to engender with skill resolution. Characters have goals, they want to achieve those goals as effectively/efficiently as possible, so a player making decisions for them will strive to make the best decisions they can. The part of my brain that wants to be an elf trying to save his village and the part of my brain that's engaged when staring at a eurogame board state exist in harmony. A skill challenge does not allow me to use the latter part, and I expect/want to be able to do so in the context of my tabletop roleplaying games.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Pedantic, post: 8736210, member: 6690965"] Rereading the discussion so far, I wanted to add some further clarity to my position. I've used the phrase "a bad game" a few times, which I want to be very clear I'm trying to apply to the skill challenge framework itself and more specifically, to the mechanical decision making it presents to players. Not to 4e more broadly, or any particular roleplaying game system. Additionally, I mean something very specific by "bad" and "game" here. I'm talking about games in sense Sid Meier described as "an interesting series of decisions," where a game is an agreement to strive toward a victory condition by making a series of iterated choices and trying to select the option at each choice that most efficiently/effectively achieves the victory condition. "Bad" in the sense that the choices presented by the game framework are trivially easy, or don't have any impact on achieving victory. My issue is with skill challenges as a mechanical framework to resolve player actions, and specifically to the gameplay incentives created thereby, and my use of the word "game" is an attempt to clarify my objections are about mechanical engagement with the rules. I don't have any strong objections to skill challenges as say, a pacing mechanism for improvisational roleplaying of non-combat scenes, but I don't think they lead to an interesting set of mechanical decisions to engage with. Perhaps a broader discussion could be had if that kind of mechanical engagement I'm talking about is something that's expected and/or desirable in roleplaying games, but I certainly think it is, and further that it is possible to engender with skill resolution. Characters have goals, they want to achieve those goals as effectively/efficiently as possible, so a player making decisions for them will strive to make the best decisions they can. The part of my brain that wants to be an elf trying to save his village and the part of my brain that's engaged when staring at a eurogame board state exist in harmony. A skill challenge does not allow me to use the latter part, and I expect/want to be able to do so in the context of my tabletop roleplaying games. [/QUOTE]

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