Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="FallenRX" data-source="post: 8736475" data-attributes="member: 7033472">The problem is skill challenges are designed with action resolution in mind rather than actually describing the problem in question and leaving it to the players to solve the issue.Hit points work because it isn't just designed with "attack monster x time, monster drops" they work because they are designed to be the representation of a character's health, something that isnt just beaten by attack but in a plethora of other ways seperate from that. Its not just when you do X enough times you win, no its "if something were to happen to cause this to go down you win" this difference is small but its of the highest importance because it dictates how the players actually engage with the fiction in question, it is describing the actuality of the situation not the resolution, how its resolved should 100% be up to the players, how they resolve or engage with the situation in question is actually up to them, not by some skills you decided, not by anything else, by actually engaging with the problem in question and the fiction of the problem in question.Skill challenges are divorced from this, they are a bunch of conditionals made first that only represent the resolution, "do this enough time to win, or lose, anything you do will go back to this". The problem with this design is if you have designed a problem or scenario like this you have already decided how its resolved and the series of actions and outcomes of how its resolved, you've made a puzzle or a plotline to follow to get X, and are circling back any action taken to this plotline, when you should not be assuming anything about how a matter should be resolved, because you should leave that to your players.This is why i call this just a bizzare rail, its why HP isn't and skill challenges are, HP is the health points, how they lower that or get victory(they don't even need to involve themselves with it to win) is up to them, its just a part of the larger problem of the scenario in question but there is no clear set of resolutions to solve it, its just descriptive. Skill challenges you made the path to resolution because thats what you designed first seperate from the problem in question, this is also just completely at odds with the nature of TTRPG in general, how can you sit there and make a path to resolution, when players can engage or resolve the matter in ways outside of the X successes, its just rigid and inflexible, and just like a badly railroaded campaign going to have to be thrown out whenever the resolution the players actually put forward comes in contact with it.Progress clocks i do not consider the same because again, it doesnt give a damn about how the players "succeed" all it does is measure something, describing something, it is not designed around how to overcome it, its designed as a description, you can even tell from the example you put foward comparing 4E skill challenges to BitD.[URL unfurl="true"]https://bladesinthedark.com/progress-clocks[/URL]"When you create a clock, make it about the obstacle, not the method." - summarizes everything right there.Just read it from the website, every single clock is designed to describe something, not to resolve, describe, it doesnt give a damn about how its resolved, it just presents a problem.Skill challenges on the other hand, don't just describe the problem, no they also design the resolution to those problems, and tie every single alternative back to this resolution system, because it never once even thought that the player may have an alternative way to actually resolve the problem, again, this is a plotline, a puzzle, a railroad, this is bad. (Especically with the original 4E rules with initiatives, and all of the other terrible ideas in that mess.)Sorry if im terrible at explaining my points lol, and thanks to all trying to piece together my weird ass rambles.Last point, the thing that bothers me the most about these Skill challenges, and all of its is just, so worthless.In the end, what does this actually add to the game? What is the benefit of using this, what does it actually do? Because right now the end result is basically just the same gameplay except the players have less narrative control on how to solve the problem, I still do not have an answer to this.</blockquote>

Verification