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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Blackbrrd" data-source="post: 6364018" data-attributes="member: 63962">I don't really like the 4e skill challenge rules. It tries to create a rigid framework where none is necessary in my opinion. I do think they were on the right track though. There is a need to help DM's create more advanced challenges. Something like this might work as a framework for creating a challenge:1) I would first come up with the thing I believe to be the challengea, and a reason for the PC's to try to overcome it (get the Baron to send a squad after the bandits to protect a village, because the PC's know someone in the village).2) I would then look at the reason for it not being a simple challenge. (For instance, why wouldn't he just do what the PC's ask? In this case it's could be due to several reasons: he doesn't trust the PC's, he doesn't have any men to do it due to other threat, he is unsure of how big the threat is and is afraid to lose his men)3) I would think about what the PC's should know at the start of the challenge. (In this case, they might know he has been asked earlier and dismissed the threat due to it coming from a tinker, and that the PC's aren't known in this area)4) I would look at the reasons for this being a challenge from point 2) and decide which of these reasons have to be removed/resolved for the challenge from point 1) to be resolved. I would also note some suggested means of resolving the reasons from point 2)Creating the challenge like this creates a framework that helps me role-play the situation dragging the PC's into the challenge. When the PC's start acting, I might ask the for some ability checks, or just let them resolve the situations without rolls if it makes sense. For instance they might have persuaded a victime to come as a witness. I think that the codified X-successes before Y-failures is to rigid to fit my kind of role playing game. Sure, you might fail at persuading a victim to bear witness (a cha(diplomacy) check), but if you bring the heads of 5 orc bandit heads to prove that there are orc bandit's, it doesn't really matter. I think allowing PC's to come up with stuff outside of the framework you have set up i advance is the core of a RPG. Having a rigid framework like 4e get's in the way and challenges should be written in a more general manner.</blockquote>

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