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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bert1000" data-source="post: 6469918" data-attributes="member: 29013">I am a huge fan of the concept of Skill Challenges but not a big fan of the 4e execution.   The concept of “a structured extended resolution framework to resolve significant non-combat goals” is an awesome tool to have in the DM toolkit.   It’s certainly doesn’t fit all (the majority?) of situations but when it does it can add a lot to a game. The 4e version was a bit of a mess with poor initial math, horrible presentation, horrible examples (including those in adventures), and not enough player options within the structure (only which skill to use).    Check out Starwars Saga Galaxy of Intrigue for a much better presentation of WotC Skill Challenges. As has been mentioned Stalker0 has a great alternative version.   Also check out Diaspora (FATE)’s social combat for a very cool version of an extended resolution mechanic.     I don’t agree with the first half of this.   I think an extended resolution mechanic can actually enhance a group of good roleplayers if approached in the right spirit.    It can actually add to the roleplaying by extending the scene, allowing for a an ebb and flow of good and bad things happening before resolution, getting characters involved that wouldn’t normally be involved (at least in some versions), etc.A DM could just do this through experience I guess but this type of structure ensures there is a certain weight to the scene, and makes the resolution non arbitrary (some groups like this feature).I agree with the last statement though.   You can’t have failure stop the action.   BUT (and this is a big but), in my mind, you have to have sufficient narrative stakes to have the extended challenge be worth doing (mechanical stakes like lose a healing surge, etc.  are not usually good enough).  In this example, what’s at stake?      If the stakes are not meaningful, just do a simple Persuasion check and move on.   However, what if the set up was the following instead.•    The party needs to get to FAR AWAY LAND quickly to give the cleric’s home temple X treasure so the local tyrant doesn’t seize the temple for not paying recently inflated taxes (the party also wants to be there in person to prevent the tyrant from changing the deal after payment…)•    They have determined that this ship is the only way to get there on time•    The captain doesn’t want to take them (it’s a big out of the way for him and he may miss a cargo run if he does it).   But he sees one of the characters nervously rubbing a golden ring adorned with rubies.•    The captain says he will take them for the ring.   But the ring is a significant part of the X treasure the party needs to give to the temple!•    The party wants to convince the captain to take them for less so they can get to the temple on time AND have enough treasure for the templeNow we have some juicy stakes that hopefully the characters and players care about.     And since the stakes are high you do not want the results determined by one Persuasion check.   The d20 is too swingy and it kind of cuts out the tension of a potentially great scene that you actually WANT to extend.A lot of roleplaying can and should happen between the rolls.   Also the circumstances can shift during the challenge.   Perhaps after a few successes the Captain invites the party to a dinner in his cabin giving entirely new approaches (and skills) a chance to shine.Notice that failure is painful (a good thing) but does not end the story – the party still gets to FAR AWAY LAND on time and can try to figure out how to make up for the lost treasure (sell a magic item?), fake part of the treasure, treat with the tyrant to get more time by performing a small 'service' for him, etc., etc.   In the end, regardless of the outcome the Skill Challenge mattered and added to the narrative in interesting ways.   IMO, the best consequences are those with emotional impact.Example #1You lose 25% of HP if you fail the “find shortcut through the wilderness challenge” – boringINSTEAD -   The party is trying to get to a village before an orc raiding party by finding a short cut.   If they fail they don’t get to the village in time and the orc raiding party has already burnt it to the ground, killed some friends, and kidnaped other friends – interesting!   There is emotional impact.  The player’s/characters feel bad about losing but the story is not completely derailed.   Now it’s about tracking down the raiding party to save the remaining friends...  Example #2 (From SW SAGA):You are leading a bunch of NPC prisoners in trying to escape a prison.   You trigger a fight if you fail the challenge – boringINSTEAD - You are trying to escape and failures mean a % of fellow prisoners you are leading to freedom get recaptured.  – interesting.   Assuming they had roleplaying interaction with the npc prisoners, the consequences have emotional impact and fun roleplaying implications.   Surely one of the prisoners (the one you were best friends with) will blame you for his recapture and seek revenge…</blockquote>

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