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<blockquote data-quote="amnuxoll" data-source="post: 5464609" data-attributes="member: 13028">I've given skill challenges a good shake.&nbsp; I've run a lot of them, designed some goods ones and ultimately come to the conclusion that they are a poor idea.&nbsp; Actually, let me frank:&nbsp; Skill challenges are a black pimple on the ass of this game.&nbsp; Show me a &quot;well run skill challenge&quot; and I'll show you a good roleplaying session wherein the DM managed to create a mapping of the player's decisions to skill checks.Why are we bothering to do the mapping?&nbsp; All the unnecessary dice rolling does is add awkwardness and break immersion.&nbsp; It's akin to doing paint by number.&nbsp; Yes, you end up with a more consistent result but in the process you've greatly discouraged creativity.Worse, skill challenges encourage the &quot;I diplomacize him&quot; style of play where negotiation and conversation are condensed down into a single diplomacy check made by the most charismatic character in the party (inevitably being played by the least charismatic player at the table...)&nbsp; In fact, it is my observation that it these rules-focused, munchkin players who are skill challenges' biggest fans.Some of you will argue, that skill challenges are a &quot;guide and not the law&quot; and, using my analogy, you can ignore the numbered spaces on the paint-by-number canvas when it doesn't match what you want to do.&nbsp; My answer is yes, of course you can.&nbsp; But this is where it gets insidious:&nbsp; inexperienced painters have a much harder time finding the will to do this.&nbsp; Over time, they become dependent upon them and unable to play without the comforting presence of N successes before 3 failures.&nbsp; It's far better to just use a blank canvas.&nbsp; Yes, you will get less consistent and often bad results.&nbsp; But it's also the only way to get a truly great roleplaying session.Some of you will argue that skill challenges are not just for roleplaying and that they're a good mechanic for traps, difficult travel, unusual tasks etc.&nbsp; Honestly, I'm not opposed to that and skill challenges of that form have been in the game for as long as there have been skills.&nbsp; But by formalizing them you are only encouraging the DM to deny simple, innovative solutions and insist on slogging through a certain number of successful checks.&nbsp; Again, I recognize that an experienced DM will be able to avoid that trap, but the majority of DMs won't have that maturity.&nbsp; And, as before, these budding DMs will be warped by an urge to &quot;stick to the script&quot; because that's how they've always done it.Ultimately, skill challenges are akin to that urge to put rules on a relationship (&quot;Kiss on the first date, second base on on the second date and sex on the third date.&quot;)&nbsp; It provides false comfort to people who can't bear to live in an unordered universe and annoys the piss out of the rest of us.In sum: Skill challenges are a crutch.&nbsp; Stop trying to add rules to something that doesn't need rules. Just play!28 Feb ADDENDUM:&nbsp; Boy, was I in a funk when I wrote this!&nbsp; My opinion on SCs is unchanged&nbsp; but I do apologize for the &quot;bad wrong fun&quot; tone that came off of it.&nbsp; That was not my intent.&nbsp;&nbsp; My intent was to try to be aggressive enough to wake up players who have been complacently using SCs without thinking outside the box.&nbsp; And, in all honesty, I think I accomplished that!&nbsp; Some really excellent comments came out of this thread and I'm grateful for them.&nbsp; For the long term, I'm going to start thinking about a better format for the concept of a &quot;skill-based encounter&quot; that doesn't encourage stilted/scripted play.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="amnuxoll, post: 5464609, member: 13028"] I've given skill challenges a good shake. I've run a lot of them, designed some goods ones and ultimately come to the conclusion that they are a poor idea. Actually, let me frank: Skill challenges are a black pimple on the ass of this game. Show me a "well run skill challenge" and I'll show you a good roleplaying session wherein the DM managed to create a mapping of the player's decisions to skill checks. Why are we bothering to do the mapping? All the unnecessary dice rolling does is add awkwardness and break immersion. It's akin to doing paint by number. Yes, you end up with a more consistent result but in the process you've greatly discouraged creativity. Worse, skill challenges encourage the "I diplomacize him" style of play where negotiation and conversation are condensed down into a single diplomacy check made by the most charismatic character in the party (inevitably being played by the least charismatic player at the table...) In fact, it is my observation that it these rules-focused, munchkin players who are skill challenges' biggest fans. Some of you will argue, that skill challenges are a "guide and not the law" and, using my analogy, you can ignore the numbered spaces on the paint-by-number canvas when it doesn't match what you want to do. My answer is yes, of course you can. But this is where it gets insidious: inexperienced painters have a much harder time finding the will to do this. Over time, they become dependent upon them and unable to play without the comforting presence of N successes before 3 failures. It's far better to just use a blank canvas. Yes, you will get less consistent and often bad results. But it's also the only way to get a truly great roleplaying session. Some of you will argue that skill challenges are not just for roleplaying and that they're a good mechanic for traps, difficult travel, unusual tasks etc. Honestly, I'm not opposed to that and skill challenges of that form have been in the game for as long as there have been skills. But by formalizing them you are only encouraging the DM to deny simple, innovative solutions and insist on slogging through a certain number of successful checks. Again, I recognize that an experienced DM will be able to avoid that trap, but the majority of DMs won't have that maturity. And, as before, these budding DMs will be warped by an urge to "stick to the script" because that's how they've always done it. Ultimately, skill challenges are akin to that urge to put rules on a relationship ("Kiss on the first date, second base on on the second date and sex on the third date.") It provides false comfort to people who can't bear to live in an unordered universe and annoys the piss out of the rest of us. [b]In sum:[/b] Skill challenges are a crutch. Stop trying to add rules to something that doesn't need rules. Just play! [b]28 Feb ADDENDUM:[/b] Boy, was I in a funk when I wrote this! My opinion on SCs is unchanged but I do apologize for the "bad wrong fun" tone that came off of it. That was not my intent. My intent was to try to be aggressive enough to wake up players who have been complacently using SCs without thinking outside the box. And, in all honesty, I think I accomplished that! Some really excellent comments came out of this thread and I'm grateful for them. For the long term, I'm going to start thinking about a better format for the concept of a "skill-based encounter" that doesn't encourage stilted/scripted play. [/QUOTE]

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