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Skill Challenges: Please stop
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<blockquote data-quote="WizarDru" data-source="post: 5465121" data-attributes="member: 151"><p>I like calamari.</p><p></p><p>But I find that calamari is easy to do wrong. Some restaurants overcook the squid, making it rubbery or too chewy. If an inexperienced chef undercooks it, it can be slimy and inedible. Some folks only expect calamari in rings, while others like the tentacles, as well. I prefer mine with marinara sauce, though ground up squid-ball in tonkatsu or soy is great, too.</p><p></p><p>Skill challenges are, to me, like calamari. They're easy to do poorly. They can be poorly executed or used when a simple skill check might be more appropriate. They can be used in place of role-playing. They can be dull or lead to meta-game abstractions. Just like calamari, they have the potential to fail to deliver the tasty meal that was hoped for. But that's not really the calamari or the skill challenge's faults.</p><p></p><p>Certainly, the core issue from a skill challenge CAN be that it can be used in place of role-playing. Whether that's a strength or a detriment is up to the individual group. Some groups can view that as a bonus; they don't have to bother with lengthy discussions and faux-acting...they can make a few rolls and get back to the dungeon. Other groups can view that as a weakness; they want to act out the motivations and discussions, in character and with nuance as often as possible. Neither approach is wrong, at least not to the group in question. Most groups will probably fall somewhere in the middle of that spectrum. </p><p></p><p>As some people like only the rings and some folks like the tentacles as well, so to do skill challenges have different kinds and approaches. Some prefer anonymous challenges, whose success is only revealed upon completion or failure. Others present them as minigames, with set rules and bonuses that are clearly established from the start. Some make it clear a challenge has begun, but the parameters are vague. All are valid approaches and I've had success with all three. Some folks don't like calamari at all and that's OK, too. They view skill challenges as a detriment.</p><p></p><p>IME, skill checks in general can engender these issues...skill challenges have the capacity to alleviate some of the meta-gamey nature of skill checks, though there is no guarantee that they will in a game. That responsibility lies with the group itself. I have used skill challenges in a variety of ways:</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A 1st level party engages 60 pirates while fighting alongside 20 NPCs, their goal to drive them off and recover a stolen item. Instead of running it as a straight combat, we ran it as two simultaneous skill challenges. The players LOVED it.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The players had to hunt down another party of adventurers in a competition, over the course of a few days, through the wilderness.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Stealing into an enemy camp, the players needed to foil the bad guys plans; they destroyed a dangerous device, rescued some prisoners, hijacked a boat and killed the enemy leader stealthily...as part of a single skill-challenge</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The players had a sailing ship split in half beneath them; a challenge required them to escape alive, rescue other crewmen if they could and retreive valuable equipment before she went down</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A clockwork automaton carrying a tremendous magical bomb was racing to town hall. The players needed to catch it, evacaute the mayor and deactivate it if they could.</li> </ul><p>These are just a few of the challenges I've used. Piratecat has used a bunch more interesting ones than me (see his heroic tier thread for details). They have been all well recieved, though I've learned important design choices from each one. I learned lessons on what worked for my group, what did not work and when skill challenges were either unnecessary or got in the way of the game.</p><p></p><p>Skill challenges can certainly be used a crutch or poor framework for player interaction. This is, however, true of skill systems in general. It was true before skills or even proficiencies became a part of the system. For as long as the game has a social component and a mechanical representation of that component, the potential has existed for abuse, misuse or poor gaming implementation. I don't personally see skill challenges as being responsible for that particular trend nor do I see them as the solution to remove that trend. Calamari can be cooked technically well, but if the players don't enjoy tonkatsu sauce on their squid or don't prefer it with chiles in its own ink, then it doesn't much matter how well prepared it actually is. (For the record, I certainly don't like it that way). WotC's extremely poor examples of skill challenges certainly don't argue in their favor. Many articles and modules treat it as a very bland mechanical exercise, simply assigning some numbers to some skill uses, with little finese to their use. I have seen very few illustrations of the concept as compelling as anything Piratecat has shared in his thread, for example (though there have been a few Dungeon modules that rose to the challenge).</p><p></p><p>One aspect I like about skill challenges is that it offers two enhancements to skill usages in previous editions. First, it removes the 'keep trying until I get it' idea from some skill uses....or rather, makes it more meaningful. 'Take 20' did something similar, but IMHO with less success. Second, it recontextualizes the usage of skills in a greater framework and <em>intends</em> to make the interaction more interesting than a simple binary success or failure. Whether it succeeds at this goal is up to the individual DM or group. </p><p></p><p>Simply put, I don't agree with the OP's feelings. For my group, Skill Challenges work and have presented us with some fun and unique gaming experiences. For my money, they are one of the best things about 4E. They are the Panko on the calamari to me. </p><p></p><p>And I find them DELICIOUS.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="WizarDru, post: 5465121, member: 151"] I like calamari. But I find that calamari is easy to do wrong. Some restaurants overcook the squid, making it rubbery or too chewy. If an inexperienced chef undercooks it, it can be slimy and inedible. Some folks only expect calamari in rings, while others like the tentacles, as well. I prefer mine with marinara sauce, though ground up squid-ball in tonkatsu or soy is great, too. Skill challenges are, to me, like calamari. They're easy to do poorly. They can be poorly executed or used when a simple skill check might be more appropriate. They can be used in place of role-playing. They can be dull or lead to meta-game abstractions. Just like calamari, they have the potential to fail to deliver the tasty meal that was hoped for. But that's not really the calamari or the skill challenge's faults. Certainly, the core issue from a skill challenge CAN be that it can be used in place of role-playing. Whether that's a strength or a detriment is up to the individual group. Some groups can view that as a bonus; they don't have to bother with lengthy discussions and faux-acting...they can make a few rolls and get back to the dungeon. Other groups can view that as a weakness; they want to act out the motivations and discussions, in character and with nuance as often as possible. Neither approach is wrong, at least not to the group in question. Most groups will probably fall somewhere in the middle of that spectrum. As some people like only the rings and some folks like the tentacles as well, so to do skill challenges have different kinds and approaches. Some prefer anonymous challenges, whose success is only revealed upon completion or failure. Others present them as minigames, with set rules and bonuses that are clearly established from the start. Some make it clear a challenge has begun, but the parameters are vague. All are valid approaches and I've had success with all three. Some folks don't like calamari at all and that's OK, too. They view skill challenges as a detriment. IME, skill checks in general can engender these issues...skill challenges have the capacity to alleviate some of the meta-gamey nature of skill checks, though there is no guarantee that they will in a game. That responsibility lies with the group itself. I have used skill challenges in a variety of ways: [LIST][*]A 1st level party engages 60 pirates while fighting alongside 20 NPCs, their goal to drive them off and recover a stolen item. Instead of running it as a straight combat, we ran it as two simultaneous skill challenges. The players LOVED it. [*]The players had to hunt down another party of adventurers in a competition, over the course of a few days, through the wilderness. [*]Stealing into an enemy camp, the players needed to foil the bad guys plans; they destroyed a dangerous device, rescued some prisoners, hijacked a boat and killed the enemy leader stealthily...as part of a single skill-challenge [*]The players had a sailing ship split in half beneath them; a challenge required them to escape alive, rescue other crewmen if they could and retreive valuable equipment before she went down [*]A clockwork automaton carrying a tremendous magical bomb was racing to town hall. The players needed to catch it, evacaute the mayor and deactivate it if they could.[/LIST] These are just a few of the challenges I've used. Piratecat has used a bunch more interesting ones than me (see his heroic tier thread for details). They have been all well recieved, though I've learned important design choices from each one. I learned lessons on what worked for my group, what did not work and when skill challenges were either unnecessary or got in the way of the game. Skill challenges can certainly be used a crutch or poor framework for player interaction. This is, however, true of skill systems in general. It was true before skills or even proficiencies became a part of the system. For as long as the game has a social component and a mechanical representation of that component, the potential has existed for abuse, misuse or poor gaming implementation. I don't personally see skill challenges as being responsible for that particular trend nor do I see them as the solution to remove that trend. Calamari can be cooked technically well, but if the players don't enjoy tonkatsu sauce on their squid or don't prefer it with chiles in its own ink, then it doesn't much matter how well prepared it actually is. (For the record, I certainly don't like it that way). WotC's extremely poor examples of skill challenges certainly don't argue in their favor. Many articles and modules treat it as a very bland mechanical exercise, simply assigning some numbers to some skill uses, with little finese to their use. I have seen very few illustrations of the concept as compelling as anything Piratecat has shared in his thread, for example (though there have been a few Dungeon modules that rose to the challenge). One aspect I like about skill challenges is that it offers two enhancements to skill usages in previous editions. First, it removes the 'keep trying until I get it' idea from some skill uses....or rather, makes it more meaningful. 'Take 20' did something similar, but IMHO with less success. Second, it recontextualizes the usage of skills in a greater framework and [i]intends[/i] to make the interaction more interesting than a simple binary success or failure. Whether it succeeds at this goal is up to the individual DM or group. Simply put, I don't agree with the OP's feelings. For my group, Skill Challenges work and have presented us with some fun and unique gaming experiences. For my money, they are one of the best things about 4E. They are the Panko on the calamari to me. And I find them DELICIOUS. [/QUOTE]
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