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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5471394" data-attributes="member: 2011">Unless the PCs are having multiple combat encounters, failing to get an extended rest means little.As does surprise. PCs in the games I play in get surprised fairly regularly and it rarely means that the encounter is more threatening.Also, say that I have a highly skilled perception PC. By surprising the PCs because they are exhausted, you are penalizing that player. What you should do is give a reasonable penalty to the perception roll, like -2 to -5 at most depending on severity, so that some PCs are more likely to be surprised whereas others may or may not be.Yeah, I'm not too keen on this idea. I've seen it mentioned before. It's the &quot;Well, I have nothing else I can penalized PCs with, so I'll penalize them this way&quot;.This can become a healing surge arms race when the DM targets healing surges. The players instead of taking interesting feats and bumping up ability scores that they want to bump up start taking Durable and bumping up CON because the DM is targeting their healing surges out of combat.I prefer consequences to be scenario affecting, not resource affecting.For example, the PCs do not arrive in time. Or the NPCs are distrustful of the PCs. Or some other in character situational disadvantage, not a game resource mechanics penalty.As for exhaustion, something as simple as stating that all PCs are at -1 for all D20 rolls if tired, -2 if exhausted, is better than wiping out healing surges. This makes serious fatigue similar to a disease or poison.Losing a healing surge because I didn't convince the Duke to protect the gates with more guards just seems inherently wrong and backwards. I have unaligned PCs that would say &quot;Oh well, the Duke's an idiot. No skin off my nose if his kingdom gets invaded.&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 5471394, member: 2011"] Unless the PCs are having multiple combat encounters, failing to get an extended rest means little. As does surprise. PCs in the games I play in get surprised fairly regularly and it rarely means that the encounter is more threatening. Also, say that I have a highly skilled perception PC. By surprising the PCs because they are exhausted, you are penalizing that player. What you should do is give a reasonable penalty to the perception roll, like -2 to -5 at most depending on severity, so that some PCs are more likely to be surprised whereas others may or may not be. Yeah, I'm not too keen on this idea. I've seen it mentioned before. It's the "Well, I have nothing else I can penalized PCs with, so I'll penalize them this way". This can become a healing surge arms race when the DM targets healing surges. The players instead of taking interesting feats and bumping up ability scores that they want to bump up start taking Durable and bumping up CON because the DM is targeting their healing surges out of combat. I prefer consequences to be scenario affecting, not resource affecting. For example, the PCs do not arrive in time. Or the NPCs are distrustful of the PCs. Or some other in character situational disadvantage, not a game resource mechanics penalty. As for exhaustion, something as simple as stating that all PCs are at -1 for all D20 rolls if tired, -2 if exhausted, is better than wiping out healing surges. This makes serious fatigue similar to a disease or poison. Losing a healing surge because I didn't convince the Duke to protect the gates with more guards just seems inherently wrong and backwards. I have unaligned PCs that would say "Oh well, the Duke's an idiot. No skin off my nose if his kingdom gets invaded.". [/QUOTE]

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