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Skill Challenges: Please stop
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<blockquote data-quote="Radiating Gnome" data-source="post: 5473790" data-attributes="member: 150"><p>Awesome, Karinsdad. I love skill challenges, and here's how I line up with your points:</p><p></p><p>1. Agree mostly, unless they will be very quick challenges meant to sketch out a bit of action that only one PC can reasonably get involved with (the rogue scouting out an enemy camp, for example -- a quick SC can make that easy to manage and run in a matter of a minute or two, make it more complex than a single skill check, and let that individual character shine for a moment with his unique skills.) The key is to be mindful of the other players at the table -- they're sitting there blowing spit bubbles while you run the rogue through this, so keep it short and sweet. </p><p></p><p>2. Agree 100%, although it's difficult to write customized skill challenges for a print publication meant to serve hundreds of different gamer groups.</p><p></p><p>3. Agree 100%</p><p></p><p>4. Agree 100%</p><p></p><p>5. Agree 100%</p><p></p><p>6. Agree 100%</p><p></p><p>7. I almost agree. I think, just like combat encounters, there's room for skill challenges that are not a nailbiter every single time. If you're the sort of DM that doesn't put his players up against combat encounters that are not Level+2 at least, then you probably don't agree that there's a design space for easier skill challenges, either. </p><p></p><p>8. My only reservation about this is that I would like to reserve the right to use a much longer skill challenge if I come up with a way that it makes sense... but in 95% of cases skill challenges should be short. </p><p></p><p>9. Agree 100% -- I think there should be XP rewards for all kinds of things other than combat. Doesn't have to be a lot of XP, but there should be some. If, as DM, you think that's pushing your PCs through the levels too fast, then house rule the XP system and double the amount of XP require to reach each level. Or something. </p><p></p><p>10. I almost agree. What I would say is that aid another should be allowed in limited ways/occassionaly, and the DC for each skill check should be adjusted if you are going to allow for aid another -- and aid checks should use appropriate DCs. (I usually add +1 to the DC for every PC that I'll allow assist on a given check). I also like the idea of using group skill checks instead of a single check with a lot of aid checks if I need a group effort for the scene I'm trying to create. </p><p></p><p>So, I agree with you about 90-95%. I'd add a few conditionals to your black and white rules, but I mostly agree with you. </p><p></p><p>What's interesting to me is that we're on opposite sides of the issue. If I had started this thread, I might have called it "please stop bad skill challenges". </p><p></p><p>I use a wide variety of challenges -- some where the PCs see the structure, some where they don't. Some big, mostly small. Some handle big plot elements, some handle small tasks. And, because I'm human and make mistakes, some are better than others, and every once in a while I drop a real stinker on the table. I start from scratch when I create each challenge, and think about the game and story effects I want to try to create, and I customize the challenge for that. </p><p></p><p>I pay attention to the party's skills, but I'm not afraid of pitting the PCs against a challenge for which they must find a creative solution because their skills don't match up exactly with the obvious requirements of the challenge -- of course, that means being flexible and accepting enough of player creativity to allow for those solutions. </p><p></p><p>Bottom line, what makes any sort of gaming interesting, IMO, is the idea of giving players choices. The essence of everything is making choices -- even combat. Which power do I use, which enemy do I attack, do I heal the fighter now or later ... those choices are where player engagement is working. The player and the character's personalities are expressed in those choices. </p><p></p><p>So, skill challenges should be built around the idea of creating the same sort of individual and party choices. If there are no choices there, the skill challenge is dull. If the player has the opportunity to make hard choices, they're engaged. If the player has the opportunity (and DM acceptance) to make creative choices, the player will remember that skill challenge a year later. </p><p></p><p>-rg</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Radiating Gnome, post: 5473790, member: 150"] Awesome, Karinsdad. I love skill challenges, and here's how I line up with your points: 1. Agree mostly, unless they will be very quick challenges meant to sketch out a bit of action that only one PC can reasonably get involved with (the rogue scouting out an enemy camp, for example -- a quick SC can make that easy to manage and run in a matter of a minute or two, make it more complex than a single skill check, and let that individual character shine for a moment with his unique skills.) The key is to be mindful of the other players at the table -- they're sitting there blowing spit bubbles while you run the rogue through this, so keep it short and sweet. 2. Agree 100%, although it's difficult to write customized skill challenges for a print publication meant to serve hundreds of different gamer groups. 3. Agree 100% 4. Agree 100% 5. Agree 100% 6. Agree 100% 7. I almost agree. I think, just like combat encounters, there's room for skill challenges that are not a nailbiter every single time. If you're the sort of DM that doesn't put his players up against combat encounters that are not Level+2 at least, then you probably don't agree that there's a design space for easier skill challenges, either. 8. My only reservation about this is that I would like to reserve the right to use a much longer skill challenge if I come up with a way that it makes sense... but in 95% of cases skill challenges should be short. 9. Agree 100% -- I think there should be XP rewards for all kinds of things other than combat. Doesn't have to be a lot of XP, but there should be some. If, as DM, you think that's pushing your PCs through the levels too fast, then house rule the XP system and double the amount of XP require to reach each level. Or something. 10. I almost agree. What I would say is that aid another should be allowed in limited ways/occassionaly, and the DC for each skill check should be adjusted if you are going to allow for aid another -- and aid checks should use appropriate DCs. (I usually add +1 to the DC for every PC that I'll allow assist on a given check). I also like the idea of using group skill checks instead of a single check with a lot of aid checks if I need a group effort for the scene I'm trying to create. So, I agree with you about 90-95%. I'd add a few conditionals to your black and white rules, but I mostly agree with you. What's interesting to me is that we're on opposite sides of the issue. If I had started this thread, I might have called it "please stop bad skill challenges". I use a wide variety of challenges -- some where the PCs see the structure, some where they don't. Some big, mostly small. Some handle big plot elements, some handle small tasks. And, because I'm human and make mistakes, some are better than others, and every once in a while I drop a real stinker on the table. I start from scratch when I create each challenge, and think about the game and story effects I want to try to create, and I customize the challenge for that. I pay attention to the party's skills, but I'm not afraid of pitting the PCs against a challenge for which they must find a creative solution because their skills don't match up exactly with the obvious requirements of the challenge -- of course, that means being flexible and accepting enough of player creativity to allow for those solutions. Bottom line, what makes any sort of gaming interesting, IMO, is the idea of giving players choices. The essence of everything is making choices -- even combat. Which power do I use, which enemy do I attack, do I heal the fighter now or later ... those choices are where player engagement is working. The player and the character's personalities are expressed in those choices. So, skill challenges should be built around the idea of creating the same sort of individual and party choices. If there are no choices there, the skill challenge is dull. If the player has the opportunity to make hard choices, they're engaged. If the player has the opportunity (and DM acceptance) to make creative choices, the player will remember that skill challenge a year later. -rg [/QUOTE]
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