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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mephistopheles" data-source="post: 4768228" data-attributes="member: 4460">One problem with providing rules for something is that it can give people the idea that they need to keep their thinking inside the box and follow those rules. While the 4E section on skill challenges does cover the territory of describing what a skill challenge involves I think it should have been a lot less rigid in defining presentation, structure and resolution.Having seen 4E skill challenge situations play out in a few different ways now - I'm currently playing in three 4E games, all of them with first time DMs - I feel that it's a system that is suffering from its own definition. My comments below summarize some of my thoughts about 4E skill challenges based on my experiences as a player in 4E games, followed by some of my thoughts on alternative presentation and resolution based on my experiences as a D&D player and DM. Some of this may be feedback that your players have not given you, some of it may be advice on how to alter things in response to feedback your players have given you.(I'm not going to touch on any of the statistical elements of the system as presented - that has already been well covered in other threads.)I. As a player facing skill challengesFirst, my thoughts based on skill challenges as a player. While the fact that the DMs of the 4E groups I'm playing in are all new to the role I don't think that invalidates my experiences. I see the section on skill challenges as being largely aimed at new DMs; if those same DMs, and I'm assuming there are many out there, are struggling to present them in play in a fun and engaging manner then perhaps a discussion of presentation and bending rules to fit the situation will be of use.1) Skill challenge incoming! All hands to dice bags!When the DM announces that a skill challenge is commencing it is jarring to the flow of play. It breaks immersion and shifts the focus on to roll play rather than role play. While I understand the intent behind advising the players which skills are primarily effective in resolving the challenge I think it also takes the fun out of the player response. 2) Take a ticket.Unless two players announce that they both want to try something at the same time and there is some need to distinguish who goes first I don't think running checks in a particular order adds much to the situation - if anything all it adds is more intrusion from the rules where it's not necessary.3) Roll 'em.I think this is one aspect of skill challenges that makes them feel particularly forced. Everyone has to make their checks every round, whether it makes any sense or not, because the system demands it. I understand the intent is to be inclusive and not have players feeling left out of the action, but when that involvement is coming up with contrived reasons that a particular skill is somehow applicable to the situation it just feels like jumping through hoops for the sake of the exercise.4) Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, watch it!Because a character may not have skills that are practical to apply to the challenge they end up having to come up with hokey justifications for using various secondary skills round after round, and unless they're attempting to aid a primary skill checker they are more likely to hurt the efforts of the group than they are to help. Sometimes discretion is the better option; not everyone can be useful in every situation.5) We're playing dice, not D&D.Sometimes a skill challenge plays out in a way that you feel you have no real control over: you need to notch up some number of successes before tripping up too many times - it all comes down to the dice. If there's no way for me to interact with and attempt to influence the situation beyond the random roll of a die then it's a pretty meaningless challenge.II. As a DM reflecting on how to run skill challengesHaving identified some of the issues with skill challenges that I feel get in the way of having a good time as a player, I'll go over a few ideas for running skill challenges in a manner that is more conducive to a natural flow of play.1) Let the players play.When engaging enemies in combat a DM does not disclose which defenses of the enemy are strong or weak; when engaging in a skill challenge the DM should not disclose which approaches, in the form of primary or secondary skills, are likely to be most successful. Present the situation to the players and let them decide how they respond. Players will usually choose to act in line with the abilities of their characters in a way that makes sense in the context of the situation, the DM then translates their action into the most appropriate skill and resolves it against the specifications of the skill challenge. The role play determines the mechanics that will be used, not the other way around.2) Just let it flow.The order in which players act will often be determined by the actions they choose. Again, unless there is some conflict between the players over their response I think there is no need to look to the rules to tell us who goes when.3) Roll 'em, but only if you need to.If a character is taking action that translates into an application of a skill then the player makes a roll as necessary; if a character is taking action that meaningfully assists another then the player makes a roll as necessary; if a character is not taking any direct involvement in the situation at this time then they can stand back and let those who are in their element earn their keep.4) Well, okay, if you think that'll work.If the situation plays out in a manner that makes sense for more than one application of a secondary skill to be viable, then why not let it be viable? A character should not be stopped from attempting something if there's no in game reason for it.5) So what happens when I do this?When an interaction takes place the player should get feedback on it so that they can adjust their actions. With no feedback on an action there is no real interaction going on and the challenge devolves into a meaningless procedure of rolling dice until an arbitrary number of successes or failures have been resolved. A large part of role playing is the cycle of attempting an action, receiving feedback on how the environment responds from the DM, and then adjusting and proceeding on. Without some cycle of action and feedback we're just sitting around rolling dice for the hell of it.6) Success and failures as guidelines and not requirements.In some cases there will be physical conditions in which the requirements for successes and failures make objective sense, but if the skill challenge specifies that ten successes are required but the role play has progressed to a situation that seems resolved with only five successes what is gained by stringing it out any longer than necessary? Just wrap it up and move on if it makes sense to do so.</blockquote>

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