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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6062792" data-attributes="member: 87792">If you're just passively observing, there's passive perception.  If it's something hinky, the DM calls for a roll.Exactly.  Except in 4e.  Where you can treat group stealth as a skill challenge (with some people running distraction to get Mr. Clanky Knight past where the guards have just been drawn away from) and the spotters are on static numbers.Out of curiosity, which version of the rules did you read?  Because the ones in the DMG1 suck for a lot of reasons and had to be re-written from the top.And yet I found about as much choice for non-casters in the 4e PHB as there is in 3.X outside the Book of 9 Swords.Let's take a rogue as our illustration.  Take the two presented builds - the Brawny Rogue (a thug) and the Trickster Rogue (a conman and acrobat).  Both, with six skills, are what you'd expect from a rogue - and they start with the 3.X equivalents of Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Disable Device, and Sleight of Hand trained (taking their two fixed skill slots to cover five skills).  The 8+Int skills the 3.X rogue never went far enough with 32 skills and four families of skill to cover.  6 out of 17 goes further - especially as the physical skills have been condensed more than other areas, benefitting the rogue and even more the fighter (Climb, Jump, and Swim are all one skill).The Brawny Rogue is big, beefy, and can either hit hard and fast between joints (Piercing Strike) or threaten the old one two (riposte strike).The Trickster Rogue was fast, charismatic, and danced through spaces in a way most people can't match.  Either misdirecting and hitting hard with Sly Flourish or dancing nimbly through a combat with Deft Strike.  This, to me, is the basic rogue - comptent in a lot of areas out of combat and laughs and dances through combat.Let's take the Trickster Rogue.  What feats does one need in 3.X so you can match the way the 3.X trickster rogue dances in combat?  First Weapon Finesse.  No question about it.  Without this you're going nowhere.  Then to dance you need Spring Attack.  So we're up to four feats; Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack in order to have the rogue move the way I think an agile one should in 3.X.  Not happening before 6th level (BAB+4 required).  You need a level 6 rogue just to have the slipping through combat working properly in 3.X.  Want to talk about options?Now let's level our 4e rogue up as far as level 2.  We now get to pick a utility power - and what this means in English is that using PHB content the rogue gets to specialise in some aspect of roguery to a degree no one without additional training can match.  They can either stealth at full speed with no penalty, jump from a standing start as if they had a running start, be glib enough to reroll a bad bluff check so they seldom botch, have the quick fingers necessary to pick pockets, open locks, or disarm traps as a minor action without penalty, or tumble. (For comparison on the quick fingers option, opening a lock in 3.5 as a move action is an epic use with a -20 penalty, and picking a pocket as a free action in 3.5 is a -20 penalty)This is the level of options and specification that the 4e PHB provides using only options presented front and centre - not even Pathfinder can touch this for non-casters.  Remember our rogue is now only level 2 and I haven't given him any feats or signature moves (i.e. encounter or daily powers) yet.  Using the default presented, our level 2 rogue effectively has max ranks in Balance, Escape Artist, Bluff, Sense Motive, Spot, Search, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Disable Device, and Sleight of Hand.The Brawny Rogue has max ranks in Climb, Jump, Swim, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Survival (Underground), Intimidate, Hide, Move Silently, Knowledge (Local), Gather Information,  Move Silently, Open Locks, Disable Device, and Sleight of Hand.(That's at least a dozen skills each)Our rogue also has a level of specialisation in one skill that can't be matched in 3.XFor feats, we'll just take the trickster rogue.  And as I've pointed out we need Weapon Finesse, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and arguably Shot on the Run (which requires Point Blank Shot) just to match Deft Strike.  We haven't spent our rogue's feats yet.  (If I were being mean I'd spent a feat on Ritual Caster).Options and choices for building characters?  4e is covered in them.  The entire power structure is about choices.</blockquote>

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