+skill items

[Velenne]

I feel they're a bit underpriced. Things like Jump or Climb aren't so bad, but when you start talking about Concentration, Spot, or Diplomacy, the likelihood for abuse is great.

Especially for the price. I mean c'mon, few casters wouldn't feel good about shelling out 2K for +10 to their Concentration checks. Or Bards feel great about getting +20 to their Diplomacy checks for a relatively piddly 8K.

Does anyone have a House Rule for these items, or is there some obscure aspect of the rule I'm missing?

 

[kreynolds]

Does anyone have a House Rule for these items...

Upper_Krust uses bonus^2 x 40 gp. Basically, double the cost indicated in the DMG.

...or is there some obscure aspect of the rule I'm missing?

Nope. They're cheap.

 

[Destil]

Supposedly 3ER will have something about this (the mortality radio interview mentiones that a +20 item might be toned down as lowe as +5 to keep it in put in in line with the original cost. Of course that's just an estmate and not an exact figure by any means by the way it was used, but it does give you an idea of the scope of the change).

 

[SteelDraco]

Remember that the cost formula are only a guideline. The GM has final say on what to allow, and even then it's only a guideline. You don't have to follow them exactly if you don't like the results they're giving you. I'd put a magic item that granted +10 to all Concentration checks at at least 8000 gp, just based on the massive utility it would have for all spellcasters. Sure it's four times the formula price, but it's also a very useful item.

In general, I do think they're a bit cheap. Bonus squared x 40 gp might be a better baseline, but it's important to remember that that's all it is.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Personally I might be inclined to change skill magic so that it doesn't boost your skill chance, but instead gives you a flat modifier which you can use instead of your natural skill.

This makes it useful as a cheap item for low level characters, but as PCs get to mythical warrior status their own natural abilities and hard-won skills become more useful for them.

In game mechanics terms it (a) doesn't make the investment in skill points by the rogue worthless (b) doesn't lead to astronomically high skill checks (c) allows heroes to be greater than their items in at least one case

 

[Victim]

I think the problem isn't so much that it's cheap to get +5 to some skills. The problem is with a massive bonus to a single skill, especially in opposed checks. Skill items should provide a bonus to someone's skill, not instantly turn them into a grandmaster.

Maybe the cost should be 20 x x^3. +5 would then cost 2250 (about the same as +10). +10 would cost 20 000 (more than twice as much). While +30 would cost 160 000. Hmm. Maybe 10 times bonus cubed.

 

[Spatzimaus]

There are a lot of house rules for these. If you just want to play with costs a bit, I'd go (bonus^2) * 50gp for limited-use skills like Jump, and (bonus^2) * 100gp for more useful stuff like Tumble or Hide. Yes, that's 5 times the DMG list price, but to me it's still worth that much. On an opposed roll, a simple +4 modifier changes it from a 47.5% win, 5% tie, 47.5% lose distribution to 66% win, 4% tie, 30% lose one. This can be huge in practice.

But even that isn't enough, IMO. It's just too easy for someone to pick up a cross-class +10 skill item and be great. If you're someone who's already raised that skill, it makes you almost untouchable, but the fact that it levels the playing field too much hurts skill-based classes (like Rogues) more than anything.

Then, there are flukes for the set-DC skills. Put a +10 Concentration item on a caster and now he can cast everything defensively. Same goes for Tumble.

The cost structure I started using IMC was:

25 gp * bonus * caster level for limited-use or non-opposed skills (Jump, any Knowledge skill, any Craft, any Profession, etc.), and
50 gp * bonus * caster level for useful/combat skills or anything requiring an opposed check.

Then, change the rules like this:
> The "bonus" is "virtual skill points". That is, they give virtual skill ranks, except that the bonus is cut in half if it's not a class skill for any of your classes. These virtual ranks only matter for skill checks; you can't use virtual skill ranks to give more Bardic Music abilities (Perform) or qualify for PrCs.
> The item cannot give you a higher skill rank total (actual skill ranks + virtual ones from the item) than the item's caster level. It CAN give you more than your normal maximum of (level+3).

So, the Boots of Elvenkind might be +10 Move Silently items with caster level 12, for a cost of 6000gp.
> If you're a Rogue who already has a +12 or higher skill modifier, the boots are useless. On the other hand, have one made that's +5 with caster level 20 (same cost), and you're fine.
> If you're a Rogue who hasn't spent any points on Move Silently, you'll probably get the full +10 bonus. But, if you start raising the skill on your own, you'll get less and less use out of them, until eventually you're so skilled that they're not helping any.
> If you're a Wizard, you'll get a +5 bonus.

Anyway, the numbers can be tweaked as needed.

EDIT: Forgot to add, we got the idea from the cybernetic chip implant rules from games like Shadowrun or Cyberpunk. That is, the chip gave you skills by letting you mimic the recorded actions of someone who knew what they were doing. You'd be able to actually DO the stuff they did, whether it was martial arts or auto repair, but you wouldn't really understand why it was working; once you removed the chip you wouldn't have gained any actual skills. And, if you already knew how to do it, the chip wouldn't help.
So, we just said that the magical +skill items were the same sort of thing

 

[Hashmalum]

Some skills are more useful than others, and some become obsolescent at higher levels due to magic anyway, but the problem is that the skill bonus pricing formula is the same for all skills. I was working on some house rules for that (different formulas/skillmaxes for different skills), but I decided not to bother when I heard that +skill items are being fixed in 3.5E. Sometimes, I'm so lazy it just kills me.

 

[Hashmalum]

Personally I might be inclined to change skill magic so that it doesn't boost your skill chance, but instead gives you a flat modifier which you can use instead of your natural skill.

I think this is a good idea for items that actually increase the user's skill (competence bonus) rather than aiding them in some other way (circumstance bonus). Look at it this way; an item that makes it easier to move silently by, say, dampening sound the user makes by 90% is going to be useful both to the novice and the expert--even the expert makes a little bit of sound, and he makes even less using the item. But an item that mystically imbues the user with insight in the art of moving so as to make no sound, while being of value to the novice, probably can't teach the expert anything he didn't already know.

 

[Steverooo]

Personally I might be inclined to change skill magic so that it doesn't boost your skill chance, but instead gives you a flat modifier which you can use instead of your natural skill.

This makes it useful as a cheap item for low level characters, but as PCs get to mythical warrior status their own natural abilities and hard-won skills become more useful for them.

In game mechanics terms it (a) doesn't make the investment in skill points by the rogue worthless (b) doesn't lead to astronomically high skill checks (c) allows heroes to be greater than their items in at least one case

BRILLIANT, PS!

(Just raise the Cloak and Boots of Elvenkind back up to +19, like they used to be!)