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Message: <blockquote data-quote="the_bruiser" data-source="post: 1006618" data-attributes="member: 6126">Technik4 – Wow, thanks for you thoughtful response.  The particular player who is considering this class may begin a story hour some time soon – if so, I’ll be sure to let you know.  He’s a gifted writer, though neither of us has much experience on these boards.  Any tips would be appreciated, as long as it doesn’t take away from this topic.I really appreciate your taking the time to go through this thoroughly; I wasn’t sure to expect on here and I’m impressed. I’ve taken some time to think about your comments, and I’m going to go through them point by point. (PS – Anyone else interested, please feel free to chime in as well!)  I’ll include the revised class below.Good point – I think I’ll remove this – the skills required will be punishing enough for rogues (much less others) who don’t have a high enough intelligence modifier.  In addition, the language requirement (per your suggestion) will also have an int-focus – characters with high int will already be close, and lower int characters will find it more difficult to know that many languages.  I agree.  That will now be the rule.  To be honest, nobody in any of our campaigns (four campaigns over three years now) has ever, ever taken this feat, so I already viewed this as a “punishing” requirement, independent of the requirement itself.  But your suggestion makes sense.I think a good requirement would be:Knowledge (Any) 8 ranksDiplomacy 8 ranksProfession (Teaching) 8 ranksSpeak, Read, and Write in at least 5 languagesI think this is sufficient in my particular campaign.  The profession: teaching is basically a reflection of the character’s having demonstrated a commitment to teaching others.  I like diplomacy rather than perform – it still gets across the interpersonal nature of teaching without being punitive above and beyond the prof: teaching requirement.  Lastly, I love the language requirement you suggested because it captures some of the int requirement I had in the last version.I’m going to change the requirements – and the flavor text –so that the rogueishness isn’t left out.  For one thing, I’m going to require 3d6 of sneak attack to prevent abuse from other classes.  This is very much meant to be a continuation of the rogue class, hence the skills offered.  I will add uncanny dodge, because I agree that it should count towards those levels.  Regarding evasion, realistically they will already have evasion by this point and I feel that improved evasion is better reserved for “pure” rogues.I think this is fair, but I have two mitigants.  First, note that in addition to giving up the +2d6 sneak attack damage, the rogue is giving up two of the advanced rogue skills – opportunist, etc. Second, I feel strongly (do you disagree?) that with these two changes the Skill Master will be a less effective combatant than a pure rogue.Note that the mentor feat does not boost the rogue’s skill points, but those of his cohort.  As such, it’s as much flavor as anything else.  In fact, a rogue cohort of a skill master may actually get more skill points than his master due to his master’s focus on training him!  I really like this bit of flavor.In response to your comments, I’ve really thought about this a lot.  Frankly, I’m not sure what to do.  I really like this idea and don’t want to give it up entirely.  Part of my feeling is based on my knowledge that my group won’t abuse it, but I know that’s not a good excuse for a general class deficiency.  Further, I agree that having every party member be very good at whatever skill is most important that day has definite drawbacks.  Here are my thoughts:Regarding skills, the benefit is likely to be +2 to (rarely) +6 or even +8.  I don’t think that this bonus is enough to take an otherwise unskilled person and make him super-effective at the levels at which this effect would occur (10th to 15th).  As such, I don’t find this to be abusive so much as colorful.Regarding feats, the recipient of the training must have all prerequisites for that feat.  In the specific case of rapid fire (just to pick an example), that would include point blank shot and a 13 dex.  As such, those people would probably already have rapid fire.  Further, remember that the rogue must know a feat to teach it – with the rogue’s limited number of feats taken, I imagine that he won’t have that many feats to start with to provide the training for others – in my experience, for instance, most rogues focus on weapon finesse, ambidexterity, and two-weapon fighting for their first three levels.  Adding leadership at 6th (to gain this class) leaves few feats to teach – and any who wished to learn would require a dex of 15!  Most characters with a dex of 15 are already on this path.In general, I think it’s likely that this ability would be more flavorful than powerful.  I assure you, though, that I will continue to think about it.  More commentary from you and from others regarding your thoughts would be invaluable.  What are the worst abuses?  I just don’t think it would be that bad, but part of that is being comfortable with the group for which I DM – if I say even a halfway emphatic no, then I have the luxury of knowing that they will accept that without argument (grumbling, sure, but no real problems – one of the advantages of dealing with a group in our late 20s <grin>).  Maybe I could also limit it to one effect per recipient per day?  I’ll go ahead and add that restriction. I’m glad you think so – I really like this one, even though it’s pretty simple – has this mechanic been used elsewhere?  I’m not too concerned with this one – frankly, I’ve never seen a 9th level rogue have too much difficulty with the tumble skill (12 class points plus +2 jump skill plus, say, 20 dex = +19 check).  I know that tumble was chosen as an example, but I frankly don’t have that much difficulty with, say, a 9th level rogue / 10th level fighter with 22 ranks (9+3+10) in, say, open locks, vs. 17 ranks (9+3+10/2) – I just don’t see this as much of a problem.I can see your problem here.  On the other hand, you’re talking about dumping a whole level of points into one skill.  From my point of view as DM, I welcome having a rogue that can, say, open locks in a truly masterful way.  In my mind, if a character wishes to lower every other skill just to become very, very good at one – and even takes levels in a prestige class to do it – then I say more power to them.  To my mind, I think it’s great – and if there’s ever a door (or whatever) I <really> don’t want them to pass, I can always arbitrarily make the DC higher – I don’t view this as a DM cheat; instead, I view it as the character’s ability to bypass every challenge not meant to be impossible.  Frankly, a high-level rogue who dumps all his possible ranks into a skill already has a high chance of passing most checks – this just allows him to round out his rolling downside while paying an overly-high opportunity cost in all other skills.In a broader sense, these last two points of yours go back to something I said in my introduction.  In my particular group, combat skills are the ones most valued by others in the party.  In some sense, giving a character an opportunity to really excel and shine in non-combat ways really appeals to me.  I want characters to be able to show to others the value of skills, even if I have to weight encounters, etc., to display those characters.  I agree totally, however, that this shouldn’t just be allowed on any skill!  That’s a great point.  I will definitely change the requirement to include skills on the list.  Thanks for pointing that out.Thanks again for your attention.  I hope that my comments make sense to you – I welcome any incremental ideas that you (or others!) have.  Further, I welcome rebuttal to these points – in most of your points I have agreed to varying degrees – but I remain open to discussion.  Again, thanks for your work.   Skill Master Prestige Class, v3Skill Masters are true Renaissance men, intent on building their skills to higher and higher degrees.  Every peculiar craft, each obscure branch of knowledge, and all skills hold an appeal for these eclectic individuals.  Because they are focused on skills independent of law and order, Skill Masters tend to be non-lawful rogues more focused personal improvement and skill development.Their love of learning new skills is matched only by their desire to share them.  With a unique insight and ability to relate a new skill to one already known, they are master teachers and often are found as tutors or professors.  Most also take on full time apprentices, usually rogues eager to learn their secrets.Skills Masters often spend their earlier years as rogues, bards, and occasionally rangers.  Fighters, wizards and priests rarely abandon their studies for such an unfocused life.Hit Die:  d6.RequirementsAlignment:  AnyFeats:  Leadership, Skill Focus (profession:teaching, diplomacy, or knowledge), Sneak Attack 3d6Skills: Profession (Teaching): 8 ranks, Diplomacy: 8 ranks, Knowledge (any): 8 ranks, Other: Must speak 5 languages, Must be introduced to class by a Skill Master of 3rd level or higher.Level       AT             FORT        REF          WILL1st    +0    +0    +2    +2    Tutor, Mentor2nd    +1    +0    +3    +3    Master Skill Focus, Sneak Attack +1d63rd    +2    +1    +3    +3    Leadership +1, Uncanny Dodge4th    +3    +1    +4    +4    Master Skill Focus, Calm Nerves 85th    +3    +1    +4    +4    Transcendent Skill6th    +4    +2    +5    +5    Master Skill Focus, Sneak Attack +1d6, Leadership +17th    +5    +2    +5    +5    Calm Nerves 138th    +6    +2    +6    +6    Master Skill Focus9th    +6    +3    +6    +6    Leadership +110th    +7    +3    +7    +7    Master Skill Focus, Sneak Attack +1d6, Calm Nerves 18Class Features:Skill Points at Each Level (R): 8 + Int. Modifier Class Skills (R): Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int, exclusive skill), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Innuendo (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Intuit Direction (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge:Any (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Pick Pocket (Dex), Profession (Wis), Read Lips (Int, exclusive skill), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha, exclusive skill), and Use Rope (Dex).Weapon and Armor Proficiency (R): Weapon training focuses on weapons suitable for stealth and sneak attacks. Thus, all Skill Masters are proficient with the crossbow (hand or light), dagger (any type), dart, light mace, sap, shortbow (normal and composite), and short sword. Medium-size Skill Masters are also proficient with certain weapons that are too big for Small characters to use and conceal easily: club, heavy crossbow, heavy mace, morningstar, quarterstaff, and rapier. Skill Masters are proficient with light armor but not with shields.Sneak Attack (R): Any time the character's target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the character flanks the target, the character's attack deals extra damage. Should the character score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can only count as sneak attacks if the target is within 30 feet. The character can't strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range. Uncanny Dodge (R): At 3rd level and above, she retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) if caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.Tutor (T): Once per day per class level, the character can train someone in how to perform a particular feat or skill.  To teach a skill, the character makes a Profession: Teaching check, and the recipient gains a temporary number of ranks in that skill equal to rounddown((check-10)/5,0).  Neither the number of temporary ranks granted nor the total effective ranks held by the recipient can exceed the number of ranks held by the teacher.  To teach a feat, the activity is DC25, the teacher must have the feat, and the student must meet all criteria to gain the feat. In either case, the effective temporary ranks or temporary feats gained last for 12 hours.  No person can be tutored more than once per day.Mentor (T): The cohort of a Skill Master gains an extra skill point per level.Leadership (T): The Skill Master’s reputation for teaching and nurturing becomes more widely known.  At each of the indicated levels, increase the Skill Master’s leadership score by one for purposes of determining number of followers.  These bonuses are cumulative and permanent.Master Skill Focus (L): Skill Masters can take Master Skill Focus in a class skill in which they have four or more ranks.  The skills gain a +2 masterful competence bonus and will thereafter be considered a class skill for the character regardless of what future classes are taken by the Skill Master.  This bonus stacks with the Skill Focus feat.Transcendent Skill (L): The Skill Master is not limited in the number of ranks he can apply toward skills for which he has Master Skill Focus.Calm Nerves (L): The Skill Master may take the indicated result rather than rolling a d20 when making skill checks in skills for which he has Master Skill Focus.</blockquote>

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