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General Tabletop Discussion
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Skill vs NADs (fort,ref,will)
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<blockquote data-quote="Jhaelen" data-source="post: 5241262" data-attributes="member: 46713"><p>I know that sweets are bad for my health, but I really like sweets! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p>It doesn't. as you already noticed, skill bonuses are handed out like candy. If a pc chooses to focus on developing a skill, it's easy to auto-succeed after a few levels, even against the (level-appropriate) hard DCs in the DMG table.</p><p>I don't know if you remember 3e and the fiasco that was the Truenamer class from the Tome of Magic? If you don't: It was an attempt to create a class using a skill to work its magic. And it failed spectacularly, because there's no good baseline for a skill bonus progression. The variance is too high.</p><p>1) Yes. Solution: Don't do it! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p>2) Nope. See above.</p><p>3) No, it's a sign of maturity <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p>4) Skills are meant to be either opposed by skill checks or used against (level-appropriate) set DCs. Note, that it's widely acknowledged that the revised skill DC table in the DMG uses values that are too low to be challenging.</p><p>This doesn't matter a lot unless skills are used to affect the outcome of combats. That's why the combat use of Intimidate is a really bad idea. It's just like in 3e using the Diplomacy skill to avoid/end a combat was bad.</p><p></p><p>In a way, imho, skills are still the red-headed stepchild of the 4e rules. Skill bonus progression is not as strictly governed as other (combat-related) bonuses.</p><p></p><p>If you really want to use defenses as the target DCs for skill checks, don't let a single skill check decide the outcome. Turn these actions into mini skill challenges. Otherwise, you'll end up with too many auto-win situations. Alternatively let the monster make an ability check to oppose the skill check (e.g. use Wisdom rather than Will). In any case you may want to use circumstancial modifiers to make the skill checks more difficult, unless you really want them to succeed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jhaelen, post: 5241262, member: 46713"] I know that sweets are bad for my health, but I really like sweets! ;) It doesn't. as you already noticed, skill bonuses are handed out like candy. If a pc chooses to focus on developing a skill, it's easy to auto-succeed after a few levels, even against the (level-appropriate) hard DCs in the DMG table. I don't know if you remember 3e and the fiasco that was the Truenamer class from the Tome of Magic? If you don't: It was an attempt to create a class using a skill to work its magic. And it failed spectacularly, because there's no good baseline for a skill bonus progression. The variance is too high. 1) Yes. Solution: Don't do it! ;) 2) Nope. See above. 3) No, it's a sign of maturity ;) 4) Skills are meant to be either opposed by skill checks or used against (level-appropriate) set DCs. Note, that it's widely acknowledged that the revised skill DC table in the DMG uses values that are too low to be challenging. This doesn't matter a lot unless skills are used to affect the outcome of combats. That's why the combat use of Intimidate is a really bad idea. It's just like in 3e using the Diplomacy skill to avoid/end a combat was bad. In a way, imho, skills are still the red-headed stepchild of the 4e rules. Skill bonus progression is not as strictly governed as other (combat-related) bonuses. If you really want to use defenses as the target DCs for skill checks, don't let a single skill check decide the outcome. Turn these actions into mini skill challenges. Otherwise, you'll end up with too many auto-win situations. Alternatively let the monster make an ability check to oppose the skill check (e.g. use Wisdom rather than Will). In any case you may want to use circumstancial modifiers to make the skill checks more difficult, unless you really want them to succeed. [/QUOTE]
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