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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7857303" data-attributes="member: 6750235">This is largely a redirect from another thread so as not to derail that thread, just so no one is confused why it looks like we started mid-discussion.  We are starting this thread mid-discussion, lol.  <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/damage-on-a-missed-attack-roll.668574/" target="_blank">This thread</a> page 9 is where we are picking up from should anyone wish to look back.  If there is a question on context of a statement or quote please ask.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Perspective A:  5e created a system that empowers DM's to when determining the results of the actions of characters.Perspective B:  5e failed to create consistency by leaving it in the hands of the DM's, and not having a listed standard prevents players from knowing what their characters can do.This type of discussion sidetracks threads regularly, so hopefully we can help that out with a location for that discussion.The basis of the discussion is that 5e does not create a list of DC's to apply skills as we've seen in the past.  We are currently comparing what a character can do in 4e to what a character can do in 5e regarding skills and ability checks.  If someone reminds me how to [SPOILER="conversation so far"][/SPOILER]Ability scores matter.  That was one of the basic premises coming in because of the complaint that they had become nothing more than a small bonus.  That's why proficiency bonus is a much smaller spread than past editions.The standard range of bonuses for a PC on a check goes from -1 (8 ability no proficiency) to +11 (20 ability 17th level proficiency).  Out of that range -1 to +5 is natural ability when +0 to +6 is proficiency.  Both are worth up to 6 points of bonus and have equal value with a slight edge to the lower and upper limits applying to proficiency.  That's a lot of weight coming from the ability score.  It's also where the standard 10/15/20 DC's BA originate to match the standard bonus spread.The ability check is based on the ability score.  Proficiency is a bonus to a subset of ability checks within that ability score.  IE DEX applies to acrobatics checks outside of variant ability scores but acrobatics proficiency does not apply to all DEX checks.  Not only does the ability score give just as much weight to the DC's and checks as proficiency, it also applies to a lot more checks.  That makes the ability scores more meaningful than the skill proficiencies.It's equal value with more frequency.Ability scores matter.  That was one of the basic premises coming in because of the complaint that they had become nothing more than a small bonus.  That's why proficiency bonus is a much smaller spread than past editions.The standard range of bonuses for a PC on a check goes from -1 (8 ability no proficiency) to +11 (20 ability 17th level proficiency).  Out of that range -1 to +5 is natural ability when +0 to +6 is proficiency.  Both are worth up to 6 points of bonus and have equal value with a slight edge to the lower and upper limits applying to proficiency.  That's a lot of weight coming from the ability score.  It's also where the standard 10/15/20 DC's BA originate to match the standard bonus spread.The ability check is based on the ability score.  Proficiency is a bonus to a subset of ability checks within that ability score.  IE DEX applies to acrobatics checks outside of variant ability scores but acrobatics proficiency does not apply to all DEX checks.  Not only does the ability score give just as much weight to the DC's and checks as proficiency, it also applies to a lot more checks.  That makes the ability scores more meaningful than the skill proficiencies.Compare that to 3e or 4e (which is where you're perspective originates).  In 3e we had ranks and synergy bonuses and anything else that might add to those checks.  Ranks alone massively increase the scale used compared to 5e proficiency and drive the ability score bonus down into just another bonus.  4e's training bonus is closer to the ability score modifier but then it also adds the half level so the ability score modifier is still just another bonus, and I think this is at odds with sliding DC's based on levels anyway.In 5e, the ability score bonus is the major component instead of a minor component.  The half-level bonus was removed along with the DC by level scale and the proficiency bonus represents 4e's +5 bonus from "trained".As for not being able to do the things a character can on the 4e list, why not?  A list of actions isn't actually needed because any conceivable action is already on that list.  A person simply needs to conceive it.  The same bonuses cannot be made as 4e because the system is different so the same DC's would not match because the system is different, but it's not the rules that prevent anything.  It's the DM.That's why I say DM empowerment and a consistent list are opposing forces.  Creating a fixed list of DC's creates something that defines what 5e let's the DM define with the simple rule of "how hard do you think it should be?" unnecessarily.  This can create inconsistencies between tables, but that only matters if the setting isn't defined in session zero or if it's a shared campaign.  I like sharing examples so that DM's and players might have an idea what to try or allow.  I can definitely see how a list of actions and DC's might be useful.  What I don't see is how 5e prevents someone from doing things just because those things aren't on a list.Keeping in line with the conversation as it relates directly to 5e, a wizard flat out doesn't open stuck doors like a barbarian.  The fact that a wizard can also take athletics (which the wizard class does not actually allow and it needs another source) does not mean the wizard will be opening stuck doors like a barbarian.  That's because wizards are not as strong as barbarians and barbarians gain advantage to such checks by raging and barbarians gain a minimum check at a very high level.  Just because classes use the same skill system does not mean those skills end up being the same.  Ability scores make a huge difference now, and class or race features also change things up.That means things like wizards excel at recalling lore because of the class proficiency options and INT focus.  Barbarians do not.  All classes become defined by their primary ability scores in which ability checks they will be good at, and which skill proficiencies they can become great at.  A +10 bonus is great.  That's when "hard" is "easy" for that character and when "almost" impossible is standard using the extra time rule.  Anything beyond +10 in the bonus is the ability to do the same thing more reliably under stress or time constraints.  It's the BA magic number in bonuses as to what it represents for that character.</blockquote>

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