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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 6095174" data-attributes="member: 82106">The problem is you guys have forgotten the issues with the 3e approach in the first place which mandated the 4e approach. It wasn't a 'change in game philosophy' or 'playstyle', it was a desire to fix perennial problems with the way the game played in ANY style. The issue is that as the gap between a trained and an untrained use of a skill increased beyond the range of a d20 2 things happened. 1) it becomes impossible to allow for ANY chance at all for someone to succeed at something without training. This is OK for many things but there are simply things that you should always be able to have some baseline chance to succeed at. ANYONE might climb a cliff or swim a river or etc. In fact these sorts of things are probably as much based on luck and general confidence and experience as anything else. Training gives you an edge, but it should NOT be required to succeed. In 3e EVERYTHING ALWAYS universally got harder and harder and eventually impossible. 2) The only things you can end up doing at all are things you are trained in, and most PCs can't deploy the ever increasing number of ranks in different skills in 3e to maintain a relevant level of skill. In effect every character is stuffed into an ever narrower 'box' of what they can effectively accomplish in any challenging situation. Eventually all you could really afford was ranks in class skills. The result is that the system overly pigeonholes the PCs and punishes anyone terribly for going outside the box of their class. Now, DDN might do away with the 'out of class punishment' aspect, but it will STILL suffer from the same problem that 4e solved, which was pushing everyone too much into a niche. The truth is that EVEN IN 4E you still had growing disparity and the DC chart slanted towards high level hard DCs being pretty close to impossible for untrained PCs, but at least it only really showed up at really high levels and it wasn't a drastic sacrifice to mitigate (IE you can afford a feat/power to get a +5 on any Athletics check once a day, enough to make such actions viable and with broad skills a power like that is not overly niche for at least some PCs).So it REALLY REALLY is not a playstyle issue, it is an issue of general desirable functioning of the entire skill system across all characters and levels.</blockquote>

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