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<blockquote data-quote="Ratskinner" data-source="post: 6096904" data-attributes="member: 6688937"><p>No tears, I generally agree. 4e definitely shot for a not-quite-freeform tag system, AFAICT. Definitely the design was set up so that you needed (I guess I'd call it) system-permission to use the tags. Certainly those legacy expectations are a part of what I was talking about. And certainly selling splat is/was a consideration. I keep doing mental experiments to add some of the freeform stuff to D&D...and very quickly it degenerates into another (splatless) system. WRT the recent Legends and Lore article, I really wonder what exactly they plan on selling us, if it won't be rules chatter.<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/ponder.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":hmm:" title="Hmmm :hmm:" data-shortname=":hmm:" /> In the back of my head, I keep thinking that Basic D&D actually will be a Euro-game style box(es) that they will use to sell mega-adventures....or maybe not. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yup. And this is where it gets wonky, IMO. First, you get the "numerical treadmill". It worked from a balance/math point of view quite well, it seems. However, I've heard others note that it made advancement feel less special. That is, they didn't feel more gonzo after leveling up, because everything else in the world just leveled up with them. I think this was especially true for magic item bonuses being written in, but I'm not sure (Its not my personal feeling about 4e). Secondly, the initial 4e books seem to have been ineffective at conveying this way of looking at things. Many players coming at it fresh off of 3e, or with the mindset that items on the character sheet must correspond to "real" things about the character, came away disappointed or confused by 4e. Thirdly, at least for me, it was all kind of great new-school thinking, but with all the tedious accounting of old-school play. Whatever the case, 4e seems to have failed to capture the fanbase. ::shrug:: Given that the new-school games tend to be niche within a niche and have sales to reflect that...I sometimes wonder if its just simply less attractive to the gamer audience. (Although blaming it on White Wolf chasing such gamers out of the audience is very seductive. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> )</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ratskinner, post: 6096904, member: 6688937"] No tears, I generally agree. 4e definitely shot for a not-quite-freeform tag system, AFAICT. Definitely the design was set up so that you needed (I guess I'd call it) system-permission to use the tags. Certainly those legacy expectations are a part of what I was talking about. And certainly selling splat is/was a consideration. I keep doing mental experiments to add some of the freeform stuff to D&D...and very quickly it degenerates into another (splatless) system. WRT the recent Legends and Lore article, I really wonder what exactly they plan on selling us, if it won't be rules chatter.:hmm: In the back of my head, I keep thinking that Basic D&D actually will be a Euro-game style box(es) that they will use to sell mega-adventures....or maybe not. Yup. And this is where it gets wonky, IMO. First, you get the "numerical treadmill". It worked from a balance/math point of view quite well, it seems. However, I've heard others note that it made advancement feel less special. That is, they didn't feel more gonzo after leveling up, because everything else in the world just leveled up with them. I think this was especially true for magic item bonuses being written in, but I'm not sure (Its not my personal feeling about 4e). Secondly, the initial 4e books seem to have been ineffective at conveying this way of looking at things. Many players coming at it fresh off of 3e, or with the mindset that items on the character sheet must correspond to "real" things about the character, came away disappointed or confused by 4e. Thirdly, at least for me, it was all kind of great new-school thinking, but with all the tedious accounting of old-school play. Whatever the case, 4e seems to have failed to capture the fanbase. ::shrug:: Given that the new-school games tend to be niche within a niche and have sales to reflect that...I sometimes wonder if its just simply less attractive to the gamer audience. (Although blaming it on White Wolf chasing such gamers out of the audience is very seductive. :) ) [/QUOTE]
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