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<blockquote data-quote="Li Shenron" data-source="post: 6734559" data-attributes="member: 1465"><p>Nobody is entitled a check until the DM says so. Many DMs will just let you try & roll everything, but no DM <em>has to</em> grant a player the right to make an ability check just because the player is asking. The DM can always decide you just can't succeed at a task, or she can decide you have disadvantage.</p><p></p><p>The proficiency bonus is too small until high levels, and even with expertise the difference is not large enough at low levels, so if the DM allows everyone to try everything, there is indeed a problem with probabilities: even with low probability per person, if you have 4-5 PCs trying the overall success probability is very high, making the group succeed almost always at tasks which require just 1 success (this is not a problem with tasks that requires group/majority success, such as Stealth). Increasing the DC restores a more reasonable success chance, but doesn't solve the problem that proficient PCs will still be overshadowed by the rest of the group.</p><p></p><p>IMXP this is a problem for example for Knowledge, trapfinding, lockpicking, tracking, strength checks (e.g. stuck doors, bend bars, lift portcullises)...</p><p></p><p>Ultimately the reason for the problems lies in the swinginess of the d20 dice coupled with too small proficiency bonus (in fact my guess is that they introduced Expertise during the playtest exactly to mitigate this problem).</p><p></p><p>If you don't see this problem happen in your game, fine. But if you do see it, then consider trying one or more of the following:</p><p></p><p>- always let proficient PCs roll first</p><p>- if applicable, put a penalty for failure that works so that the DC increases for additional attempts (locks get jammed, traces are disturbed, doors get even more stuck...)</p><p>- set a max DC achievable depending on your proficiency grade (non-prof/half-prof/full-prof/expert) or bonus</p><p>- use passive checks instead of rolls</p><p>- use d10 instead of d20 (adjust DC accordingly)</p><p>- flat out disallow untrained check</p><p></p><p>However, you must do these carefully because not all skills are born equal... There is no reason to restrict Perception checks to avoid being surprised for example.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Li Shenron, post: 6734559, member: 1465"] Nobody is entitled a check until the DM says so. Many DMs will just let you try & roll everything, but no DM [I]has to[/I] grant a player the right to make an ability check just because the player is asking. The DM can always decide you just can't succeed at a task, or she can decide you have disadvantage. The proficiency bonus is too small until high levels, and even with expertise the difference is not large enough at low levels, so if the DM allows everyone to try everything, there is indeed a problem with probabilities: even with low probability per person, if you have 4-5 PCs trying the overall success probability is very high, making the group succeed almost always at tasks which require just 1 success (this is not a problem with tasks that requires group/majority success, such as Stealth). Increasing the DC restores a more reasonable success chance, but doesn't solve the problem that proficient PCs will still be overshadowed by the rest of the group. IMXP this is a problem for example for Knowledge, trapfinding, lockpicking, tracking, strength checks (e.g. stuck doors, bend bars, lift portcullises)... Ultimately the reason for the problems lies in the swinginess of the d20 dice coupled with too small proficiency bonus (in fact my guess is that they introduced Expertise during the playtest exactly to mitigate this problem). If you don't see this problem happen in your game, fine. But if you do see it, then consider trying one or more of the following: - always let proficient PCs roll first - if applicable, put a penalty for failure that works so that the DC increases for additional attempts (locks get jammed, traces are disturbed, doors get even more stuck...) - set a max DC achievable depending on your proficiency grade (non-prof/half-prof/full-prof/expert) or bonus - use passive checks instead of rolls - use d10 instead of d20 (adjust DC accordingly) - flat out disallow untrained check However, you must do these carefully because not all skills are born equal... There is no reason to restrict Perception checks to avoid being surprised for example. [/QUOTE]
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