Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Skills used by players on other players.
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 7533236" data-attributes="member: 71699"><p>A case that troubles me is thinking about Strength (Athletics) for a grapple, versus Charisma (Persuasion) to persuade. You, as the player, can't determine that your character isn't grappled, if you lose the contest against an NPC's Strength (Athletics). You could well say "<em>I walk away from the NPC</em>", choosing not to ignore that your Speed has been made 0 in that situation: the skill check overrides your decision. So far as I understand, many people agree with that. Implying that perhaps many people agree that a skill check can override a player decision. A similar case can be made for Dexterity (Stealth). I think many people would agree that ordinarily, a player can't <em>decide</em> to see a hidden PC or NPC.</p><p></p><p>This line of reasoning makes me hypothesise that it's not just about "<em>you as a player determining how your character thinks, acts and talks</em>", because in the cited instances skill checks override that. You don't get to act how you want, if what you want is to walk away from a successful grapple or perceive a successful hider. For me this suggests a couple of options.</p><p></p><p>One option is that you get to determine how your character intends to think, act and talk, but that is then mediated through game mechanics. Overwhelmingly, that's what happens at the table. "<em>I decide to hit the Orc</em>"... "<em>Okay, roll dice according to the game mechanics and we will see if your intended action happens</em>".</p><p></p><p>Another option is that the above is generally true, except for certain skills, which are a special exception. I actually think this is fine as an argument, but what I want to know is why are they a special exception? I think we can point to a confounding aspect to social skills. In the case of being grappled, my game avatar has its speed made 0: nothing interferes with my intent to walk away. I just can't. Whereas with an application of social skills, such as a PC persuading me to stay put, it could feel like my intent is being rewritten: I can't even form an intent to walk away. I think this is ignoring the essential duality of the player-game relationship (see Miguel Sicart for more detail on that). What could really be happening in both instances is this -</p><p></p><p>#1 Clearstream the real life player forms an intent that Dross, their character and avatar in the game, will walk away. They tell the DM this.</p><p>#2a Dross is grappled. It's understood that Dross wants to walk away, but the avatar's speed is 0.</p><p>#2b Dross is diplomanced. It's understood that Dross doesn't want to walk away, regardless of the avatar's speed.</p><p></p><p>In each case, it's you - the player - that made all the decisions. Those decisions were mediated into the game world in different ways, depending on what game mechanics were in play.</p><p></p><p>Something like that is roughly the argument I'm looking at. I think so far it hasn't been addressed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 7533236, member: 71699"] A case that troubles me is thinking about Strength (Athletics) for a grapple, versus Charisma (Persuasion) to persuade. You, as the player, can't determine that your character isn't grappled, if you lose the contest against an NPC's Strength (Athletics). You could well say "[I]I walk away from the NPC[/I]", choosing not to ignore that your Speed has been made 0 in that situation: the skill check overrides your decision. So far as I understand, many people agree with that. Implying that perhaps many people agree that a skill check can override a player decision. A similar case can be made for Dexterity (Stealth). I think many people would agree that ordinarily, a player can't [I]decide[/I] to see a hidden PC or NPC. This line of reasoning makes me hypothesise that it's not just about "[I]you as a player determining how your character thinks, acts and talks[/I]", because in the cited instances skill checks override that. You don't get to act how you want, if what you want is to walk away from a successful grapple or perceive a successful hider. For me this suggests a couple of options. One option is that you get to determine how your character intends to think, act and talk, but that is then mediated through game mechanics. Overwhelmingly, that's what happens at the table. "[I]I decide to hit the Orc[/I]"... "[I]Okay, roll dice according to the game mechanics and we will see if your intended action happens[/I]". Another option is that the above is generally true, except for certain skills, which are a special exception. I actually think this is fine as an argument, but what I want to know is why are they a special exception? I think we can point to a confounding aspect to social skills. In the case of being grappled, my game avatar has its speed made 0: nothing interferes with my intent to walk away. I just can't. Whereas with an application of social skills, such as a PC persuading me to stay put, it could feel like my intent is being rewritten: I can't even form an intent to walk away. I think this is ignoring the essential duality of the player-game relationship (see Miguel Sicart for more detail on that). What could really be happening in both instances is this - #1 Clearstream the real life player forms an intent that Dross, their character and avatar in the game, will walk away. They tell the DM this. #2a Dross is grappled. It's understood that Dross wants to walk away, but the avatar's speed is 0. #2b Dross is diplomanced. It's understood that Dross doesn't want to walk away, regardless of the avatar's speed. In each case, it's you - the player - that made all the decisions. Those decisions were mediated into the game world in different ways, depending on what game mechanics were in play. Something like that is roughly the argument I'm looking at. I think so far it hasn't been addressed. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Skills used by players on other players.
Top