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<blockquote data-quote="Guest 6801328" data-source="post: 7534071"><p>That part is totally fine and I completely agree with it. Well, I don't think you have to have an actual test. I think it's fine to just narrate it. But let's say you allow a roll, and the Bard rolls a natural 20, and has Guidance, and Expertise in Persuade, and 20 Cha, and he's level 17. Ok, so now he's rolled 41!!!! So the King smiles and calls the Bard silver-tongued, and gives him some kind of reward, and everybody at the banquet cheers. Whatever.</p><p></p><p>I agree with all that. That's fun. I'd rather play with a DM who did these sorts of things.</p><p></p><p>But <em>not</em> doing any of that and just saying, "Naw, there's no way you can convince him..." is just simply not loss of player agency. It doesn't prevent the player from controlling his own character. Whether or not the DM allows dice to be rolled, and whether or not he takes into account how the dice fall, has absolutely nothing to do with player agency. </p><p></p><p>Think about this: what if the player tries the same trick on a statute of a dead king? Should the DM ask for a roll and consider the results? If you do think so then we probably should stop discussing this. But if you agree that case is over the line, let's talk about why. It's because <em>in your opinion</em> the attempt to Persuade should have some kind of affect, but on the statue it shouldn't. But the king and the statue are not your characters; they belong to the DM. Only the DM gets to decide what his/her characters think and do. (Maybe the King is a pre-programmed automaton, and the statue is some kind of petrified king that retained it's mental powers.) So your insistence on rolling dice for the attempt on the King is, ironically, "loss of DM agency".</p><p></p><p>By the way, the reason I'm so insistent on precise use of language here is that loss of player agency is a real problem at some tables, and I don't want to see the term debased/clouded by attempts to use it in other contexts, such as "The DM doesn't share my ideas of how this fictional world should work."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Guest 6801328, post: 7534071"] That part is totally fine and I completely agree with it. Well, I don't think you have to have an actual test. I think it's fine to just narrate it. But let's say you allow a roll, and the Bard rolls a natural 20, and has Guidance, and Expertise in Persuade, and 20 Cha, and he's level 17. Ok, so now he's rolled 41!!!! So the King smiles and calls the Bard silver-tongued, and gives him some kind of reward, and everybody at the banquet cheers. Whatever. I agree with all that. That's fun. I'd rather play with a DM who did these sorts of things. But [I]not[/I] doing any of that and just saying, "Naw, there's no way you can convince him..." is just simply not loss of player agency. It doesn't prevent the player from controlling his own character. Whether or not the DM allows dice to be rolled, and whether or not he takes into account how the dice fall, has absolutely nothing to do with player agency. Think about this: what if the player tries the same trick on a statute of a dead king? Should the DM ask for a roll and consider the results? If you do think so then we probably should stop discussing this. But if you agree that case is over the line, let's talk about why. It's because [I]in your opinion[/I] the attempt to Persuade should have some kind of affect, but on the statue it shouldn't. But the king and the statue are not your characters; they belong to the DM. Only the DM gets to decide what his/her characters think and do. (Maybe the King is a pre-programmed automaton, and the statue is some kind of petrified king that retained it's mental powers.) So your insistence on rolling dice for the attempt on the King is, ironically, "loss of DM agency". By the way, the reason I'm so insistent on precise use of language here is that loss of player agency is a real problem at some tables, and I don't want to see the term debased/clouded by attempts to use it in other contexts, such as "The DM doesn't share my ideas of how this fictional world should work." [/QUOTE]
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