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<blockquote data-quote="Guest 6801328" data-source="post: 7534084">Those are great examples in terms of getting at some nuance here.&nbsp; Let's investigate:No loss of agency.&nbsp; The player can still narrate that his character tries to hide, and the character is free to do so.&nbsp; It's probably* going to be an automatic failure, the game mechanic of the &quot;Hide action&quot; cannot be used, but the character can still try to hide in the lower-case sense. *Subject to conditions.&nbsp; The only other occupant of the room might be blind, for example, in which case the lighting is irrelevant.&nbsp; However the DM rules.Yes!&nbsp; Loss of agency!&nbsp; That's specifically written into the rules; it isn't the DM taking away agency.</blockquote>&quot;Dross is under the Sorcerer's Charm Person right now; looking hurt that Dross might be abandoning him, the Sorcerer succeeds on his Persuasion check to beg Dross not to go sneaking off!&quot;[/QUOTE]Yup, loss of agency according to the rules.&nbsp; Again, not the DM taking away agency, though.&nbsp; &quot;Because magic.&quot;If, by &quot;earlier persuaded Dross&quot;, you mean that Dross's player agreed to be persuaded, then sure.&nbsp; If you mean that Dross' player was not persuaded and the DM ordered him to comply, then yes that is very much loss of player agency by DM fiat.As you may have noticed, the distinction I and others use is the one you note: whether or not game mechanics define the loss of agency.&nbsp; Which tends to mean magic. (But not exclusively: being unconscious or dead is also a form of loss of agency.)&nbsp; And the reason magic is ok is that it is not saying anything about the character.&nbsp; It totally hand-waves the mental state of the PC.&nbsp; I might say, &quot;My character hates water and would never, ever, ever jump in a lake.&quot;&nbsp; A Charm spell doesn't change that fact.&nbsp; But if you Persuade me to jump in the lake it is basically saying that my statement wasn't true after all, that I'm not really defining my character's personality.Where problems arise is where the DM takes away agency because he thinks the story should go a certain way.&nbsp; (And even I recognize there are some grey areas where that's ok.&nbsp; For example, DM narrates a cut scene where the PCs are captured, stripped of weapons, and thrown in jail.&nbsp; Is that loss of agency?&nbsp; In a way, because it prevents me from casting Time Stop and trying to prevent the whole thing.&nbsp; But I also recognize that D&amp;D is REALLY BAD at &quot;getting captured by the guards&quot; kinds of scenes, so I'd probably grumble a little bit but go along with it.)One of the problems here is that we're really interleaving two discussions: agency and PvP.&nbsp; For example, Player A casting Charm Person on Player B is clearly &quot;loss of player agency within defined mechanics&quot; but it's not ok (for a lot of us) if forces player B to engage in undesired PvP.Using Persuasion on another PC, and requiring both a roll and compliance with the result, is bad because it violates both principles: it's both loss of player agency by DM fiat and forced PvP.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="Guest 6801328, post: 7534084"] Those are great examples in terms of getting at some nuance here. Let's investigate: No loss of agency. The player can still narrate that his character tries to hide, and the character is free to do so. It's probably* going to be an automatic failure, the game mechanic of the "Hide action" cannot be used, but the character can still try to hide in the lower-case sense. *Subject to conditions. The only other occupant of the room might be blind, for example, in which case the lighting is irrelevant. However the DM rules. Yes! Loss of agency! That's specifically written into the rules; it isn't the DM taking away agency.[/quote] "[I]Dross is under the Sorcerer's [/I]Charm Person[I] right now; looking hurt that Dross might be abandoning him, the Sorcerer succeeds on his Persuasion check to beg Dross not to go sneaking off![/I]"[/QUOTE] Yup, loss of agency according to the rules. Again, not the DM taking away agency, though. "Because magic." If, by "earlier persuaded Dross", you mean that Dross's player agreed to be persuaded, then sure. If you mean that Dross' player was not persuaded and the DM ordered him to comply, then yes that is very much loss of player agency by DM fiat. As you may have noticed, the distinction I and others use is the one you note: whether or not game mechanics define the loss of agency. Which tends to mean magic. (But not exclusively: being unconscious or dead is also a form of loss of agency.) And the reason magic is ok is that it is not saying anything about the character. It totally hand-waves the mental state of the PC. I might say, "My character hates water and would never, ever, ever jump in a lake." A Charm spell doesn't change that fact. But if you Persuade me to jump in the lake it is basically saying that my statement wasn't true after all, that I'm not really defining my character's personality. Where problems arise is where the DM takes away agency because he thinks the story should go a certain way. (And even I recognize there are some grey areas where that's ok. For example, DM narrates a cut scene where the PCs are captured, stripped of weapons, and thrown in jail. Is that loss of agency? In a way, because it prevents me from casting Time Stop and trying to prevent the whole thing. But I also recognize that D&D is REALLY BAD at "getting captured by the guards" kinds of scenes, so I'd probably grumble a little bit but go along with it.) One of the problems here is that we're really interleaving two discussions: agency and PvP. For example, Player A casting Charm Person on Player B is clearly "loss of player agency within defined mechanics" but it's not ok (for a lot of us) if forces player B to engage in undesired PvP. Using Persuasion on another PC, and requiring both a roll and compliance with the result, is bad because it violates both principles: it's both loss of player agency by DM fiat [I]and[/I] forced PvP. [/QUOTE]

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