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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 7534106" data-attributes="member: 71699"><p>So it seems like where we diverge is that I think of Persuasion as "<em>just another game mechanic</em>". And I don't think of agency as all or nothing. I think it is possible to lose agency over some things, without losing all agency. And I am not concerned that <u>some</u> agency can be lost to being grappled (speed 0 = no agency to move), being in the wrong circumstances (bright light = no agency to hide), or being under the effects of a spell (<em>dominate person</em> = no agency to choose actions). Seeing as becoming grappled uses Strength (Athletics), I seem to have already conceded skills some power over some agency. Thus, as I see it, the problem with Charisma (Persuasion) isn't one of agency per se, but one of definition and degree. Being grappled is concrete. My character's speed is 0, but they can still cast spells or attack, and there are rules for getting out of the grapple. Where is the rule for getting out of "<em>persuaded</em>"? What can I do or not do? Grapple controls Speed. Persuaded potentially controls everything. That seems far too powerful, and not sufficiently well defined to feel really happy about.</p><p></p><p>When a character persuades a NPC, a neutral arbiter (the DM) decides what part of agency is given up, for how long, and what circumstances can interrupt that. A DM can hand wave lack of definition in that regard. When a character persuades a character, that lack of definition becomes a real problem. It puts a burden on a DM to very quickly come up with fair feeling parameters. I might simply lower the stakes for the Barbarian. "<em>Look, if Face wins you must do </em>something <em>to help the villagers, but that can be anything from throwing them a few coppers, to going the full nine yards</em>." The point isn't whether that is the right thing to do, the point is only to illustrate how ambiguous the terms of Persuasion are. I find it more rationally coherent to say that spells are accepted <em>because</em> they have strong mechanical clarity. Not because it's okay to lose agency to some game mechanics, but not others.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That's true. I am addressing the agency discussion, and silent on the PvP discussion. They are both complex: it's often easier to make progress on one problem at a time.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 7534106, member: 71699"] So it seems like where we diverge is that I think of Persuasion as "[I]just another game mechanic[/I]". And I don't think of agency as all or nothing. I think it is possible to lose agency over some things, without losing all agency. And I am not concerned that [U]some[/U] agency can be lost to being grappled (speed 0 = no agency to move), being in the wrong circumstances (bright light = no agency to hide), or being under the effects of a spell ([I]dominate person[/I] = no agency to choose actions). Seeing as becoming grappled uses Strength (Athletics), I seem to have already conceded skills some power over some agency. Thus, as I see it, the problem with Charisma (Persuasion) isn't one of agency per se, but one of definition and degree. Being grappled is concrete. My character's speed is 0, but they can still cast spells or attack, and there are rules for getting out of the grapple. Where is the rule for getting out of "[I]persuaded[/I]"? What can I do or not do? Grapple controls Speed. Persuaded potentially controls everything. That seems far too powerful, and not sufficiently well defined to feel really happy about. When a character persuades a NPC, a neutral arbiter (the DM) decides what part of agency is given up, for how long, and what circumstances can interrupt that. A DM can hand wave lack of definition in that regard. When a character persuades a character, that lack of definition becomes a real problem. It puts a burden on a DM to very quickly come up with fair feeling parameters. I might simply lower the stakes for the Barbarian. "[I]Look, if Face wins you must do [/I]something [I]to help the villagers, but that can be anything from throwing them a few coppers, to going the full nine yards[/I]." The point isn't whether that is the right thing to do, the point is only to illustrate how ambiguous the terms of Persuasion are. I find it more rationally coherent to say that spells are accepted [I]because[/I] they have strong mechanical clarity. Not because it's okay to lose agency to some game mechanics, but not others. That's true. I am addressing the agency discussion, and silent on the PvP discussion. They are both complex: it's often easier to make progress on one problem at a time. [/QUOTE]
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