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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7534375" data-attributes="member: 16814">I'm at a bit of a loss as to how what the players do is really just the DM's responsibility to describe when the players have the designated power to describe what actions they are taking.As to your second, kind of. The players declare what they want to do, the DM's responsibility to adjudicate and narrate the outcome, not the action.&nbsp; That may take the form of asking for a INT(nature) check is the describe action is trying to recall lore about a plant, but the trying to recall lore is what the PC does, as narrated by the player.&nbsp; The result is dependent on the DM's call that the attempt to recall lore is uncertain.When dealing with what a PC thinks, though, there is no uncertain result -- it's what the player says.&nbsp; Because they're the only ones that get to determine what they think.&nbsp; So, yes, I have correctly described what DMs do according to the 5e playloop, but I don't think it lines up with what you're saying.Yes, this means that players cannot get information about other PC if that involves discerning what they think, because its the players authority to say what's certain or uncertain about what they think.&nbsp; Such is the nature of imperfect models.&nbsp; I don't see how it improves the game to have the DM gainsay what players want their PCs to do based on what the DM thinks is appropriate.&nbsp; As a DM, I already have so much control over the game that I don't feel the need to step on my player's toes.&nbsp; In return, if they want to use persuasion or insight on each other, I let them work it out -- I've got no say in what they think.&nbsp; If they want to roll (and it's mutual), they can.&nbsp; Totally up to them.&nbsp; Meanwhile, I've got plenty to do.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7534375, member: 16814"] I'm at a bit of a loss as to how what the players do is really just the DM's responsibility to describe when the players have the designated power to describe what actions they are taking. As to your second, kind of. The players declare what they want to do, the DM's responsibility to adjudicate and narrate the outcome, not the action. That may take the form of asking for a INT(nature) check is the describe action is trying to recall lore about a plant, but the trying to recall lore is what the PC does, as narrated by the player. The result is dependent on the DM's call that the attempt to recall lore is uncertain. When dealing with what a PC thinks, though, there is no uncertain result -- it's what the player says. Because they're the only ones that get to determine what they think. So, yes, I have correctly described what DMs do according to the 5e playloop, but I don't think it lines up with what you're saying. Yes, this means that players cannot get information about other PC if that involves discerning what they think, because its the players authority to say what's certain or uncertain about what they think. Such is the nature of imperfect models. I don't see how it improves the game to have the DM gainsay what players want their PCs to do based on what the DM thinks is appropriate. As a DM, I already have so much control over the game that I don't feel the need to step on my player's toes. In return, if they want to use persuasion or insight on each other, I let them work it out -- I've got no say in what they think. If they want to roll (and it's mutual), they can. Totally up to them. Meanwhile, I've got plenty to do. [/QUOTE]

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