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Message: <blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7535457" data-attributes="member: 6919838">Yup. PHB specifically provides for ability scores the option of just not making progress or some progress with setback.Also the part of the dmg there about consequence of failure is given context by the paragraph it finishes and the immediately following bullet point questions.The former puts it as a conclusion of examples of tasks too easy to fail.The following bullets spotlight the when to roll criteria as basically can succeed and can fail both being true - just stated as inelegantly as double negatives. No mention of consequences there at all. So, they provide three approaches and the middle ground is simply listed as one many use, but even it doesn't list consequences in its "if both are no" criteria.But if someone wants to find sentences to support pretty much whatever they want, picking a sentence here or another there and ignoring the rests has a time honored traditional basis - in a lot of belief systems.</blockquote>