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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 3726731" data-attributes="member: 42582">Just adding a voice in favour of Victim's response to F4nboy.I really think there is a coherence problem with D&D 3.x. The BAB and HP rules are heroic in flavour, in the sense that every mid-to-high level character is a warrior of some skill when measured against the typical soldier (a 1st or 2nd level NPC Warrior). Or looking at it another way: by 14th level the average wizard has BAB and hp comparable to a lion; at 10th level the typical fighter will probably beat that lion in unarmed combat (assume DEX 16 and ST 18, giving AC 12 and 1d3+4 unarmed damge: the fighter delivers a bit over 10 hits per round (ignoring power attack) while taking 15 - the lion is unconscious in 3 rounds and the fighter is still standing).For a human to beat a lion unarmed is a feat of supreme phyiscal heroism! It seems slightly absurd, to me at least, that such a character is at risk of drowning in a small lake on a perfectly still summer's day. But the D&D skill system makes this possible, because it is gritty in flavour, like Runequest or Rolemaster or classic Traveller.From what I've heard about 4E it will try to eliminate much of this sort of incoherence. As far as skills are concerned, I'd imagine that gritty will bite the dust.If climbing or swimming comes up in an encounter then the same opportunity cost will be there, as 4E encounters will be designed so that the wizard's role is to cast a spell (perhaps a levitate spell, or one that stills the ocean waves or parts the waters), not to piddle around with half-baked skill attempts.On the other hand, if you are envisaging climing or swimming in non-encounter contexts - eg the party comes to a cliff that it must scale, or a lake that it must cross, before it can get to the next dungeon/room/monster/whatever, then I don't think 4E will support that sort of play. The exploration/expedition aspects of D&D are, I think, being relegated to past editions. (This issue was discussed, among other things, on this now-closed <a href="http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204773&page=1&pp=40" target="_blank">thread</a> and on this <a href="http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=204611" target="_blank">thread</a> also.)</blockquote>

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