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<blockquote data-quote="RyanD" data-source="post: 330574" data-attributes="member: 3312">The problem isn't the monster, it's the CR systemFundamentally, the problem with higher level D&amp;D play is that the one-size-fits-all CR system doesn't work.Example:&nbsp; A 20th level Commonor, a 20th level Wizard and the Terrasque are all the same CR.&nbsp; Which would you rather fight?My suggestion: The CR system needs to be reworked from the ground up to provide &quot;CR Factors&quot;.&nbsp; A &quot;CR Factor&quot; might be something like &quot;Undead +2CR&quot;.&nbsp; Each monster would list all the &quot;CR Factors&quot; that apply to it.&nbsp; Common CR Factors might include a function based on hit dice, Flying, Incorporeality, various levels of spellcasting power, extraordinary equipment, etc.Then the DM would use those CR factors to determine which were relevant to his or her gaming group.&nbsp; The Undead CR Factor is a much bigger deal if the party doesn't have any Clerics, for example.&nbsp; Using CR Factors, the DM can calculate the correct CR for an individual Party.Something similar to this was tried by TSR in 2nd Edition near the end of the development cycle.&nbsp; By then, the factors used to calculate a monster's XP award consisted of several hundred discrete options - so many that it became virtually impossible to figure out a correct XP award without computerized assistance.&nbsp; The problem with the old 2E XP system of course was that the XP awards didn't change vs. character (or party) level.The beauty of &quot;CR Factors&quot; is that while you could have a pretty long list of defined Factors, designers would just check them off when listing the CR Factors for any given opponent.&nbsp; The process could be reduced to a simple web form or excel spreadsheet macro.Of course, the problem with this system is that it makes creating one-size-fits-all dungeon encounters for printed modules very difficult(*).&nbsp; Since no two parties will likely face any given encounter at the same CR, a designer would need to include explicit instructions for scaling the CR of each monster up or down as necessary to hit the target EL.&nbsp; (Or the EL target could be abandoned, and the DM could recalculate the &quot;true&quot; EL based on the &quot;true&quot; CRs of the opponents faced - allowing the EL/XP system to flex the reward up or down as the challenge level goes up or down).Ryan(*) Actually, it reveals something that DMs with higher level PCs already know - D&amp;D's stock XP award system breaks down and stops being useful at about 10th level, and from that point onward requires constant hand-adjustment by the DM to keep the game running smoothly.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="RyanD, post: 330574, member: 3312"] [b]The problem isn't the monster, it's the CR system[/b] Fundamentally, the problem with higher level D&D play is that the one-size-fits-all CR system doesn't work. Example: A 20th level Commonor, a 20th level Wizard and the Terrasque are all the same CR. Which would you rather fight? My suggestion: The CR system needs to be reworked from the ground up to provide "CR Factors". A "CR Factor" might be something like "Undead +2CR". Each monster would list all the "CR Factors" that apply to it. Common CR Factors might include a function based on hit dice, Flying, Incorporeality, various levels of spellcasting power, extraordinary equipment, etc. Then the [B]DM[/B] would use those CR factors to determine which were relevant to [B]his or her[/B] gaming group. The Undead CR Factor is a much bigger deal if the party doesn't have any Clerics, for example. Using CR Factors, the DM can calculate the correct CR for an individual Party. Something similar to this was tried by TSR in 2nd Edition near the end of the development cycle. By then, the factors used to calculate a monster's XP award consisted of several hundred discrete options - so many that it became virtually impossible to figure out a correct XP award without computerized assistance. The problem with the old 2E XP system of course was that the XP awards didn't change vs. character (or party) level. The beauty of "CR Factors" is that while you could have a pretty long list of defined Factors, designers would just check them off when listing the CR Factors for any given opponent. The process could be reduced to a simple web form or excel spreadsheet macro. Of course, the problem with this system is that it makes creating one-size-fits-all dungeon encounters for printed modules very difficult(*). Since no two parties will likely face any given encounter at the same CR, a designer would need to include explicit instructions for scaling the CR of each monster up or down as necessary to hit the target EL. (Or the EL target could be abandoned, and the DM could recalculate the "true" EL based on the "true" CRs of the opponents faced - allowing the EL/XP system to flex the reward up or down as the challenge level goes up or down). Ryan (*) Actually, it reveals something that DMs with higher level PCs already know - D&D's stock XP award system breaks down and stops being useful at about 10th level, and from that point onward requires constant hand-adjustment by the DM to keep the game running smoothly. [/QUOTE]

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