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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 331257" data-attributes="member: 4937">This problem is not new to 3rd edition, and I think it a credit to 3rd edition that it only begins becoming serious only at 15th level (or so depending on how you min/max).&nbsp; These sort of problems could easily be talked about at 9th level in 1st edition. One of the reasons I initially moved away from AD&amp;D is that D&amp;D has always had the problem of combats being too short and too often won in the first round.&nbsp; Third edition hasn't fixed this problem, but it did control it (got rid of 20d6 fireballs, gave monsters con bonuses, etc.)I personally don't think the problem is with the CR system.&nbsp; One of the biggest problems is that high level monsters don't have nearly enough h.p., but do often have way too powerful of attack forms (particularly of the save or essentially die variety).&nbsp; A given party typically has 2-4 times as many h.p. as a typical 'boss' monster that they face, and can do several times as much damage per round. The monster doesn't really have a chance without serious protections that negate thier abilities.&nbsp; However, because ther h.p. of the party is spread out amongst the whole party, a monster with attacks equivalent to its defences is going to kill party members quick if they don't kill it first.&nbsp; The situation is analogous to 1st edition poison.&nbsp; Probably your AC was high enough to protect you from most attacks, but if you got unlucky, probably you would die.&nbsp; I'd much prefer scaling back a monsters damage output a little (the way poison was scaled back generally) and scaling up its ability to survive attacks, such that, a combat tended to go multiple rounds and be memorable.&nbsp; Would this be hard on high level spell casters?&nbsp; Probably.And my hats off to anyone that has gotten the PC's involved in a hotly contested tense 12 or 20 round fight (as opposed to just merely dice rolling to kill the next wave of goblins).&nbsp; From experience I know how much work that takes, and my frustration with how difficult it is to 'show a monster off' (especially one with a deep array of abilities) may lead to me becoming disgusted with D&amp;D again.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 331257, member: 4937"] This problem is not new to 3rd edition, and I think it a credit to 3rd edition that it only begins becoming serious only at 15th level (or so depending on how you min/max). These sort of problems could easily be talked about at 9th level in 1st edition. One of the reasons I initially moved away from AD&D is that D&D has always had the problem of combats being too short and too often won in the first round. Third edition hasn't fixed this problem, but it did control it (got rid of 20d6 fireballs, gave monsters con bonuses, etc.) I personally don't think the problem is with the CR system. One of the biggest problems is that high level monsters don't have nearly enough h.p., but do often have way too powerful of attack forms (particularly of the save or essentially die variety). A given party typically has 2-4 times as many h.p. as a typical 'boss' monster that they face, and can do several times as much damage per round. The monster doesn't really have a chance without serious protections that negate thier abilities. However, because ther h.p. of the party is spread out amongst the whole party, a monster with attacks equivalent to its defences is going to kill party members quick if they don't kill it first. The situation is analogous to 1st edition poison. Probably your AC was high enough to protect you from most attacks, but if you got unlucky, probably you would die. I'd much prefer scaling back a monsters damage output a little (the way poison was scaled back generally) and scaling up its ability to survive attacks, such that, a combat tended to go multiple rounds and be memorable. Would this be hard on high level spell casters? Probably. And my hats off to anyone that has gotten the PC's involved in a hotly contested tense 12 or 20 round fight (as opposed to just merely dice rolling to kill the next wave of goblins). From experience I know how much work that takes, and my frustration with how difficult it is to 'show a monster off' (especially one with a deep array of abilities) may lead to me becoming disgusted with D&D again. [/QUOTE]

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