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<blockquote data-quote="The Serge" data-source="post: 332017" data-attributes="member: 4049">CR isn't the end all, be all.In some ways, this argument reminds me of a thread at the WotC site on Demiliches.When I read SKR's &quot;rant&quot; yesterday, I was of two minds on the issue.&nbsp; On one hand, I agreed that the CR may have been off by a bit and that the Effigy, as printed, would cosume more than 20% of a four party group of 20-whatevers facing it.&nbsp; Almost.It struck me that CR is at its best only a guideline for the DM.&nbsp; A DM looking at the Effigy needs to decide two things.&nbsp; Does he want this to be a &quot;regular run-of-the-mill&quot; monster, or does she intend on doing something special with this entity?&nbsp; Secondly, are we talking about a 20% expenditure for all involved characters across the board or a total expenditure for the entire party.&nbsp; A Wizard casting a whole-bunch of spells, half of which make it through, may well spend more than 20%.&nbsp; But an epic level Fighter, with all of the armor benefits and bonuses she should have may not suffer an excessive amount of damage. The reason this reminds me of the Demilich is because I wonder if most DMs will use an Effigy as a standard monster.&nbsp; The Demilich presented in the ELH is a CR 29... which means it casts as a 21st level Wizard.&nbsp; Thus, the Wizard in a party attacking it should be 29th level, effectively eight levels higher than the entity.&nbsp; But, I've never seen a party of equivelent encounter levels fighting a Demilich because I don't see such a contest as being inherently a fair fight.&nbsp; By itself, the EL will be off the roof if the PCs, after fighting their way through all manner of traps and guardians, reach the prepared Demilich who will have more traps and guardians.&nbsp; Further, a Demilich is a campaign boss/mastermind, IMO.&nbsp; It's not meant to be an average challenge in the first place.&nbsp; Is the Effigy in the same boat?&nbsp; Should it be expected to be an average challenge or is it something greater, and is its CR only a general guideline similar to that of Dragons?What this boils down to is how you see your monster and how you use CR.&nbsp; CR is a guideline and a very effective one at lower levels.&nbsp; I'd dare say effective until 20th level at the least.&nbsp; However, any DM of any significant degree of creativity and imagination will not allow CR to limit his/her campaign and may well put four 13th level PCs facing a CR 13 Iron Golem in a small room with an copper piping that will conduct any electricity across the room, harming everyone.&nbsp; The CR may be accurate, but the EL will challenge the PCs beyond 20%.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="The Serge, post: 332017, member: 4049"] [b]CR isn't the end all, be all.[/b] In some ways, this argument reminds me of a thread at the WotC site on Demiliches. When I read SKR's "rant" yesterday, I was of two minds on the issue. On one hand, I agreed that the CR may have been off by a bit and that the Effigy, as printed, would cosume more than 20% of a four party group of 20-whatevers facing it. Almost. It struck me that CR is at its best only a guideline for the DM. A DM looking at the Effigy needs to decide two things. Does he want this to be a "regular run-of-the-mill" monster, or does she intend on doing something special with this entity? Secondly, are we talking about a 20% expenditure for all involved characters across the board or a total expenditure for the entire party. A Wizard casting a whole-bunch of spells, half of which make it through, may well spend more than 20%. But an epic level Fighter, with all of the armor benefits and bonuses she should have may not suffer an excessive amount of damage. The reason this reminds me of the Demilich is because I wonder if most DMs will use an Effigy as a standard monster. The Demilich presented in the ELH is a CR 29... which means it casts as a 21st level Wizard. Thus, the Wizard in a party attacking it should be 29th level, effectively eight levels higher than the entity. But, I've never seen a party of equivelent encounter levels fighting a Demilich because I don't see such a contest as being inherently a fair fight. By itself, the EL will be off the roof if the PCs, after fighting their way through all manner of traps and guardians, reach the prepared Demilich who will have more traps and guardians. Further, a Demilich is a campaign boss/mastermind, IMO. It's not meant to be an average challenge in the first place. Is the Effigy in the same boat? Should it be expected to be an average challenge or is it something greater, and is its CR only a general guideline similar to that of Dragons? What this boils down to is how you see your monster and how you use CR. CR is a guideline and a very effective one at lower levels. I'd dare say effective until 20th level at the least. However, any DM of any significant degree of creativity and imagination will not allow CR to limit his/her campaign and may well put four 13th level PCs facing a CR 13 Iron Golem in a small room with an copper piping that will conduct any electricity across the room, harming everyone. The CR may be accurate, but the EL will challenge the PCs beyond 20%. [/QUOTE]

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