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Message: <blockquote data-quote="greymarch" data-source="post: 332731" data-attributes="member: 4625">Let me preface my remarks by saying that I absolutely love high level D&D, and especially epic level D&D!  I have been playing D&D for roughly 15 years with the same group of friends, but we couldnt play our post 20th level characters until the 3rd edition epic book was released.  Now that it is out, we can finally play our favorite characters again.  Thank you WOTC for publishing the Epic Level Handbook!High level D&D does have its problems though, and the CR system is one of the main culprits.  I feel that the CR assigned to each creature seems to be related to the relative strength of a 4 man party, and said party is assumed to be created from the rules expressed in the PHB, DMG, and perhaps the epic level book if you are using epic level monsters.  The problem with this is that most people dont stick to just those three books.  They use many, if not all of  the class related books, and also the campaign related books.  With all the different feats, items, prestige classes and special abilities from these books, it makes it extremely difficult to fit a CR to a certain group of characters.  A CR of 15 may fit nicely to 4 characters created using the PHB, but when you put the same CR 15 creature against characters made using all the WOTC books, those characters will be significantly tougher than standard PHB characters, and will easily defeat a CR 15 monster.  To be more specific, here is an example of what I am talking about:Virtually all the monsters in the epic level book, and a good portion of high level monsters in the other books, have spell resistance.  Upon first examination, these creatures seem to have a good chance to stop many of the spells cast at them.  If you played a straight-up high level wizard; for example a 25th level wizard, and only used the rules from the PHB, DMG and epic level book, then it seems reasonable that a given creature of 25 CR might be able to stop the spells of a 25th level wizard.  But, as I said earlier, very few people only stick to these few books.  Many arcane spellcasters will have several levels of classes, from various books, to help them defeat spell resistance, or will take feats from various books to help them beat spell resistance.A character in my gaming group is a 25th level arcane spellcaster.  He has several levels of the Archmage prestige class, and even more levels of Red Wizard of Thay prestige class.  The SR of a 25 CR creature is a joke to him.  In fact, he can beat the SR of every creature in the epic level book that is below a CR of 31!  The writers of the epic level book simply could not account for all the ways of making a character super-powerful, and so the CRs of creatures do not fit with the actual power of the party.The above paragraph is just one example of how a player can use rules from the various books to make his character much more powerful than his actual level would lead you to believe.  There are lots of other examples that allow you accomplish the same imbalance.When four 18th level fighters take on a tarrasque, should the tarrasque be the same CR to them as say a group of four 18th level wizards?  Or how about a group of four 18th level arcane spellcasters who have taken levels of archmage, dragon disciple, and Witch of Rashemen (to name a few.)  Even though all characters use the same experience point table, not all characters are created equal.  Some classes are more powerful than others, and it throws off the CR scale in the DMG (and epic level book.)There should be some way to scale the CR of a creature relative to the actual power of a party, not the average level of the party.  If your party is mostly composed of melee characters, then fighting a monster with a super-high AC should be worth more than fighting a monster with a pathetic AC.  If your party is heavy on spellcasting, then fighting a creature with an extremely high SR should be worth more than fighting a creature without SR, or has a low SR.   Of course, this really complicates matters, because there are many ways of defeating creatures, and you would have to create a scale or system to measure the power of your party.  It would be a mess.  You would have to figure out each creature's weaknesses and strengths relative to the weaknesses and strengths of your party.  I dont claim to have the answer, but I would certainly like to see a change.  Some type of system for scaling the CR of a creature to the actual power of the party would be a welcome addition to 3rd edition D&D.</blockquote>

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