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<blockquote data-quote="ashockney" data-source="post: 335770" data-attributes="member: 1363">High Level CR's and EL'sThis is the fourth or fifth really good thread on EN World and Wizards boards about the challenges of high-level play in 3rd Edition.&nbsp; This is one of the first threads that has had so many heavy-weights weigh in on the subject.It has been farily well established in the previous threads that the CR system begins to lose it's consistency at higher levels.&nbsp; Even a &quot;baseline&quot; CR becomes significantly less relevent at higher levels as the &quot;comparable changes&quot; required to bring your villian up to the power of your party becomes exponentially more difficult to calculate.I echo the sentiment that a CR &quot;factor&quot; which laid out the designer's reasoning in assigning a creatures' CR would be extremely helpful.&nbsp; Further, I would really love to see a standard &quot;d20&quot; methodology for advancing creatures to fight against a &quot;min/max'd&quot; party.&nbsp; For example, I am required to spend hours of preparation time advancing, adding hit dice, increasing saving throws, calculating stats with &quot;buff&quot; spells, adding magic items, and developing encounters that leverage my villian's strengths.&nbsp; This is a ton of additional work.&nbsp; The bottom line is that below 10th level, I rarely, if ever, must put forth this kind of effort, no matter how much my characters' min/max.&nbsp; On another note from the thread, I use the XP system from the DMG, and I think it works great.As it regards Sean's rant, I agree that it can be very disheartening to fight against villians who ignore your character's strengths.&nbsp; Any DM that thinks otherwise needs to spend some more time as a player!&nbsp; In defense of the concept of this creature, however, having played high-level 3rd Ed quite a bit, I recognize and appreciate how difficult it is to really challenge a party of high level characters.&nbsp; If you take away the abilities of Undead, Incorporeal, and Possession, this monster is reduced to surprise round fodder!&nbsp; It most likely, won't even take an action.&nbsp; This is a tough situation, and I'd challenge Sean (or others) to offer how they would have presented a similar monster, that challenges a high level party?&nbsp; In my present high level campaign, it is a rare villian that doesn't have SR, immunities, concealment, damage reduction, defensive spells, buff spells, and more than one type of attack that will be threaten the party (ie, very high raw damage, poison, attribute reduction, immediate incapacitation, etc.).Good luck to all who take on the endeavor of building a CR system that makes it easier for DM's to do their jobs!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ashockney, post: 335770, member: 1363"] [b]High Level CR's and EL's[/b] This is the fourth or fifth really good thread on EN World and Wizards boards about the challenges of high-level play in 3rd Edition. This is one of the first threads that has had so many heavy-weights weigh in on the subject. It has been farily well established in the previous threads that the CR system begins to lose it's consistency at higher levels. Even a "baseline" CR becomes significantly less relevent at higher levels as the "comparable changes" required to bring your villian up to the power of your party becomes exponentially more difficult to calculate. I echo the sentiment that a CR "factor" which laid out the designer's reasoning in assigning a creatures' CR would be extremely helpful. Further, I would really love to see a standard "d20" methodology for advancing creatures to fight against a "min/max'd" party. For example, I am required to spend hours of preparation time advancing, adding hit dice, increasing saving throws, calculating stats with "buff" spells, adding magic items, and developing encounters that leverage my villian's strengths. This is a ton of additional work. The bottom line is that below 10th level, I rarely, if ever, must put forth this kind of effort, no matter how much my characters' min/max. On another note from the thread, I use the XP system from the DMG, and I think it works great. As it regards Sean's rant, I agree that it can be very disheartening to fight against villians who ignore your character's strengths. Any DM that thinks otherwise needs to spend some more time as a player! In defense of the concept of this creature, however, having played high-level 3rd Ed quite a bit, I recognize and appreciate how difficult it is to really challenge a party of high level characters. If you take away the abilities of Undead, Incorporeal, and Possession, this monster is reduced to surprise round fodder! It most likely, won't even take an action. This is a tough situation, and I'd challenge Sean (or others) to offer how they would have presented a similar monster, that challenges a high level party? In my present high level campaign, it is a rare villian that doesn't have SR, immunities, concealment, damage reduction, defensive spells, buff spells, and more than one type of attack that will be threaten the party (ie, very high raw damage, poison, attribute reduction, immediate incapacitation, etc.). Good luck to all who take on the endeavor of building a CR system that makes it easier for DM's to do their jobs! [/QUOTE]

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