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<blockquote data-quote="evildmguy" data-source="post: 338933" data-attributes="member: 6092">Not sure it is a baselineOkay, I am in the group, with skr if I understand what he is saying, that says that CRs break down for high level groups.&nbsp; I agree with that.&nbsp; Example:I ran a one shot epic level group.&nbsp; I chose 37th level out of the blue as the level.&nbsp; The players wrote up their own characters.&nbsp; Using 37th level as a baseline, I wrote up the encounters.&nbsp; I was surprised at what I found out.1)&nbsp; Before I even got to running the adventure, I thought about using a Devistation Vermin.&nbsp; Question?&nbsp; How can a creature with a CR of 39 have a Fortitude save of 98?&nbsp; I have no idea how a 39th level group can have at least a +88 to have an *average* chance to succeed at this save.&nbsp; This might have been a typo, of course, of either CR or Save DC.&nbsp; 2)&nbsp; The &quot;baseline&quot; is VERY important.&nbsp; It is tough to ignore it.&nbsp; While I like RyanD's ideas, I don't know how he will do it.&nbsp; Case in point.&nbsp; All of my players took the cool special abilities of Epic weapons instead of having higher than a +5 enhancement bonus.&nbsp; An encounter with creatures that were rated as a CR of 25 with DR of 20/+6 nearly decimated the party!&nbsp; As I understand CR, anything that is 2 less should be a cakewalk for the group.&nbsp; This was 12 less and nearly destroyed the party!&nbsp; Again, this was from a play test session.&nbsp; 3)&nbsp; Even after all of this, combat still lasted LESS THAN 4 ROUNDS!&nbsp; Even against the most powerful creature with DR such that the PCs only did a little damage.&nbsp; It was through good uses of spells (attack and defensive) as well as tactics that they did this.&nbsp; What I got out of the play test, and this thread, is that RyanD is probably on the right track.&nbsp; It might take more tough.&nbsp; For example, DR of 10/+1 might be +1 to CR but what about against the group that didn't have a magic weapon?&nbsp; What is it then?In general, what I have gotten out of this is the following:&nbsp; DND is sometimes TOO specific.&nbsp; I have completely stopped an adventure because at some point the group had to go underwater, fly or travel to the planes and yet no one in the group was able to do it.&nbsp; I have always found that frustrating.&nbsp; Or worse, they can't breathe underwater so they have to stop what they are doing and either wait for a day to memorize different spells or go try and find potions or spells or whatever to let them do what they needed to do.&nbsp; There are work arounds but work arounds get old, imo.&nbsp; This is a limitation of the system, imo, because of how specific things are.&nbsp; Just some thoughts and observations.edg</blockquote>

[QUOTE="evildmguy, post: 338933, member: 6092"] [b]Not sure it is a baseline[/b] Okay, I am in the group, with skr if I understand what he is saying, that says that CRs break down for high level groups. I agree with that. Example: I ran a one shot epic level group. I chose 37th level out of the blue as the level. The players wrote up their own characters. Using 37th level as a baseline, I wrote up the encounters. I was surprised at what I found out. 1) Before I even got to running the adventure, I thought about using a Devistation Vermin. Question? How can a creature with a CR of 39 have a Fortitude save of 98? I have no idea how a 39th level group can have at least a +88 to have an *average* chance to succeed at this save. This might have been a typo, of course, of either CR or Save DC. 2) The "baseline" is VERY important. It is tough to ignore it. While I like RyanD's ideas, I don't know how he will do it. Case in point. All of my players took the cool special abilities of Epic weapons instead of having higher than a +5 enhancement bonus. An encounter with creatures that were rated as a CR of 25 with DR of 20/+6 nearly decimated the party! As I understand CR, anything that is 2 less should be a cakewalk for the group. This was 12 less and nearly destroyed the party! Again, this was from a play test session. 3) Even after all of this, combat still lasted LESS THAN 4 ROUNDS! Even against the most powerful creature with DR such that the PCs only did a little damage. It was through good uses of spells (attack and defensive) as well as tactics that they did this. What I got out of the play test, and this thread, is that RyanD is probably on the right track. It might take more tough. For example, DR of 10/+1 might be +1 to CR but what about against the group that didn't have a magic weapon? What is it then? In general, what I have gotten out of this is the following: DND is sometimes TOO specific. I have completely stopped an adventure because at some point the group had to go underwater, fly or travel to the planes and yet no one in the group was able to do it. I have always found that frustrating. Or worse, they can't breathe underwater so they have to stop what they are doing and either wait for a day to memorize different spells or go try and find potions or spells or whatever to let them do what they needed to do. There are work arounds but work arounds get old, imo. This is a limitation of the system, imo, because of how specific things are. Just some thoughts and observations. edg [/QUOTE]

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