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Skyfall (possible spoilers)
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<blockquote data-quote="delericho" data-source="post: 6045273" data-attributes="member: 22424"><p>My point exactly. You don't put someone under constant surveillance unless you're prepared for a betrayal.</p><p></p><p>Additionally, since the agents on the boat know she's been turned, they have ample time to phone their boss to let him know. Indeed, assuming any of the characters involved have half a brain, it needs to be assumed that they did so - simply turning up with an enemy agent, even if he is a captive, should be an absolute no-no in any properly run evil empire.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, but given how elaborate <em>this</em> backup plan was, just how many such plans are we supposed to assume that he has? Especially since it would be much easier to simply avoid capture in the first place.</p><p></p><p>Indeed, if his goal is "confront M and then kill her", then the film has already shown one much easier way to achieve that - just break into her house, like Bond did.</p><p></p><p>Incidentally, regarding some of your other examples...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I had no problem with that, because the Joker's "deliberate capture" plan was the product of a demented mind, <em>and</em> because the deliberate capture gave him something that he otherwise didn't have - access to the lawyer. Plus, his escape plan was well in place before then, and not reliant on the good guys doing anything out of character.</p><p></p><p>Similarly, John Doe's plan in Se7en makes a certain amount of sense, because he needs to get close to Bard Pitt, and because he's already achieved almost everything he needs to achieve anyway. And, of course, he doesn't need to stage an escape.</p><p></p><p>And Loki's plan in Avengers Assemble gives him three things he didn't have otherwise: the ability to sow dissent amongst the heroes, the ability to 'activate' the Hulk, and the ability to have Hawkeye track the heroes' hidden base.</p><p></p><p>Even so, I'm not sure any of these is a <em>good</em> plan, but at least they all give the bad guys some recognisable advantage.</p><p></p><p>(For Skyfall, a better approach may have been the folowing: the goons we see later in the film are actually tracking the laptop, which they follow to MI6's new hidden base. They break in, free their boss, and wipe out most of the remaining agents. That explains the capture, the escape, and it also explains why Bond then rushes off up North without backup, to a barely-fortified location that he hasn't visited in decades and so doesn't even have any real local knowledge of.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The Phantom Menace makes a lot more sense if Qui-Gon is actually working for Palpatine the whole time (especially if Darth Maul doesn't know this):</p><p></p><p>Palpatine arranges the invasion, and when Valorum dispatches two Jedi to negotiate, Qui-Gon uses his influence to get the job. The attempt by the Trade Federation to kill the Jedi is staged, which is why Qui-Gon is able to identify the poison used - he can't do it by scent, since it's an <em>inhaled poison</em>, and he surely can't identify it by sight since it's just a sort of smoke.</p><p></p><p>So, the Jedi go to the planet and 'rescue' Amidala. This explains why the Federation can't shoot down a ship with no shields - they were trying not to. Oh, and the hyperdrive wasn't mysteriously "damaged" - it was sabotaged by the Federation while the ship was on the ground, under Palpatine's never-explained orders.</p><p></p><p>Why go to Tatooine? Well, Palpatine wants Qui-Gon to pick something up for him - the child conceived by his old master, Plaguis. (That explains why Darth Maul is able to track the ship to Tatooine, when both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan make it clear no transmissions were to be sent - he didn't; Palpatine told him to go there. It also explains why Qui-Gon engages in this madness over the Pod Race, when it would make more sense just to pop to Mos Eisley and hire a freighter, or just borrow some money from Jabba, or find a money-changer, or...)</p><p></p><p>And then they take Amidala to Coruscant. This is an instrumental part of Palpatine's plan - he needs <em>her</em> to call for the vote of no-confidence, because if he does it then he won't get the job. Politicians are notoriously averse to rewarding the hand that weilded the knife.</p><p></p><p>It's only after that that the plan starts to unravel, with Amidala returning to Naboo and defeating the Federation, and with Darth Maul killing Qui-Gon. Suddenly, Qui-Gon isn't around to train Anakin, and so Palpatine needs to take a more direct hand. And he also needs a new crisis with which to deepen the conflict.</p><p></p><p>--</p><p></p><p>Seriously, up until RotS came out, I had half expected that to be the big reveal of the movie. There had even been hints of this in AotC, what with Dooku turning out to be Qui-Gon's mentor, and his line "don't be so sure..."</p><p></p><p>The layout you give on your blog is interesting... but I'm afraid I put much less store in the genius of George Lucas. I think instead he just had a vague sequence of events in mind (that is, the things that happened in the films), but really needed someone to help him out with the details.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="delericho, post: 6045273, member: 22424"] My point exactly. You don't put someone under constant surveillance unless you're prepared for a betrayal. Additionally, since the agents on the boat know she's been turned, they have ample time to phone their boss to let him know. Indeed, assuming any of the characters involved have half a brain, it needs to be assumed that they did so - simply turning up with an enemy agent, even if he is a captive, should be an absolute no-no in any properly run evil empire. Yes, but given how elaborate [i]this[/i] backup plan was, just how many such plans are we supposed to assume that he has? Especially since it would be much easier to simply avoid capture in the first place. Indeed, if his goal is "confront M and then kill her", then the film has already shown one much easier way to achieve that - just break into her house, like Bond did. Incidentally, regarding some of your other examples... I had no problem with that, because the Joker's "deliberate capture" plan was the product of a demented mind, [i]and[/i] because the deliberate capture gave him something that he otherwise didn't have - access to the lawyer. Plus, his escape plan was well in place before then, and not reliant on the good guys doing anything out of character. Similarly, John Doe's plan in Se7en makes a certain amount of sense, because he needs to get close to Bard Pitt, and because he's already achieved almost everything he needs to achieve anyway. And, of course, he doesn't need to stage an escape. And Loki's plan in Avengers Assemble gives him three things he didn't have otherwise: the ability to sow dissent amongst the heroes, the ability to 'activate' the Hulk, and the ability to have Hawkeye track the heroes' hidden base. Even so, I'm not sure any of these is a [i]good[/i] plan, but at least they all give the bad guys some recognisable advantage. (For Skyfall, a better approach may have been the folowing: the goons we see later in the film are actually tracking the laptop, which they follow to MI6's new hidden base. They break in, free their boss, and wipe out most of the remaining agents. That explains the capture, the escape, and it also explains why Bond then rushes off up North without backup, to a barely-fortified location that he hasn't visited in decades and so doesn't even have any real local knowledge of.) The Phantom Menace makes a lot more sense if Qui-Gon is actually working for Palpatine the whole time (especially if Darth Maul doesn't know this): Palpatine arranges the invasion, and when Valorum dispatches two Jedi to negotiate, Qui-Gon uses his influence to get the job. The attempt by the Trade Federation to kill the Jedi is staged, which is why Qui-Gon is able to identify the poison used - he can't do it by scent, since it's an [i]inhaled poison[/i], and he surely can't identify it by sight since it's just a sort of smoke. So, the Jedi go to the planet and 'rescue' Amidala. This explains why the Federation can't shoot down a ship with no shields - they were trying not to. Oh, and the hyperdrive wasn't mysteriously "damaged" - it was sabotaged by the Federation while the ship was on the ground, under Palpatine's never-explained orders. Why go to Tatooine? Well, Palpatine wants Qui-Gon to pick something up for him - the child conceived by his old master, Plaguis. (That explains why Darth Maul is able to track the ship to Tatooine, when both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan make it clear no transmissions were to be sent - he didn't; Palpatine told him to go there. It also explains why Qui-Gon engages in this madness over the Pod Race, when it would make more sense just to pop to Mos Eisley and hire a freighter, or just borrow some money from Jabba, or find a money-changer, or...) And then they take Amidala to Coruscant. This is an instrumental part of Palpatine's plan - he needs [i]her[/i] to call for the vote of no-confidence, because if he does it then he won't get the job. Politicians are notoriously averse to rewarding the hand that weilded the knife. It's only after that that the plan starts to unravel, with Amidala returning to Naboo and defeating the Federation, and with Darth Maul killing Qui-Gon. Suddenly, Qui-Gon isn't around to train Anakin, and so Palpatine needs to take a more direct hand. And he also needs a new crisis with which to deepen the conflict. -- Seriously, up until RotS came out, I had half expected that to be the big reveal of the movie. There had even been hints of this in AotC, what with Dooku turning out to be Qui-Gon's mentor, and his line "don't be so sure..." The layout you give on your blog is interesting... but I'm afraid I put much less store in the genius of George Lucas. I think instead he just had a vague sequence of events in mind (that is, the things that happened in the films), but really needed someone to help him out with the details. [/QUOTE]
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