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Slaads are failures as exemplars of Chaotic NEUTRAL
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7869804" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Yes, IRL, but this is a failure of terms in trying to explain what I am thinking. Especially since I don't use alignment myself.</p><p></p><p>Let us take a Tolkien view of the world for a second. Good and Evil are absolute. </p><p></p><p>Good is right, good is never evil. If it were evil, it would not be good. If something is labeled as good, it cannot be evil and must be right. By definition, this must be true. </p><p></p><p>Evil is wrong, evil is never good. If it were good, it would not be evil. If something is labeled as evil, it cannot be good and must be wrong. By definition, this must be true.</p><p></p><p>Now, we add a second axis in Law and Chaos. And, sticking with how Tolkien would have seen it, let us apply the same bit. Law and Chaos are absolute. </p><p></p><p>Law is right, law is never chaotic. If it were, it would not be Law. If it is labeled as Law, it must be right, by definition. </p><p></p><p>Chaos is wrong, chaos is never lawful. If it were, it would not be Chaos. If it is labeled as chaos, it must be wrong, by definition.</p><p></p><p>So, now you have Lawful Good, it is right and right, everything done by Lawful good is the most right. The definition works, it is right and right, so it is right. </p><p></p><p>Now look at Chaotic Good. It is wrong and right. If it is wrong, it cannot be good, because the definition of good means right. But, if it is right, it can't be Chaotic, because the definition of chaotic means wrong. </p><p></p><p>You end up dealing in a contradiction of terms. Lawful Evil becomes right and wrong, definitionally. But that is not what we mean by Lawful Evil or Chaotic Good. </p><p></p><p>And so, because philosophic discussion around morality, when dealing with absolutes which DnD tends to present, sets us up with one side being right and the other wrong, it cannot view Law and Chaos as moral distinctions. If it did, Elves and Unicorns would be as bad as Devils and Tyrants. Both are a mix of "bad things" and "good things" They would occupy the same position morally, because they both follow the "correct" moral path (good and law respectively) and the "incorrect" moral path (chaos and evil respectively)</p><p></p><p>This doesn't work. This is nonsense in the story that DnD presents. We can make it work. We can twist it and go subjective and make it all fit, but the far more elegant solution is just to view law and chaos as not being moral, but being exactly what they are. How orderly are you? How much do you live your life by rules and regulations? </p><p></p><p>Not that that doesn't break down immediately either, because of course following rules is normally the morally right thing to do, unless the rules are evil or tyrannical.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7869804, member: 6801228"] Yes, IRL, but this is a failure of terms in trying to explain what I am thinking. Especially since I don't use alignment myself. Let us take a Tolkien view of the world for a second. Good and Evil are absolute. Good is right, good is never evil. If it were evil, it would not be good. If something is labeled as good, it cannot be evil and must be right. By definition, this must be true. Evil is wrong, evil is never good. If it were good, it would not be evil. If something is labeled as evil, it cannot be good and must be wrong. By definition, this must be true. Now, we add a second axis in Law and Chaos. And, sticking with how Tolkien would have seen it, let us apply the same bit. Law and Chaos are absolute. Law is right, law is never chaotic. If it were, it would not be Law. If it is labeled as Law, it must be right, by definition. Chaos is wrong, chaos is never lawful. If it were, it would not be Chaos. If it is labeled as chaos, it must be wrong, by definition. So, now you have Lawful Good, it is right and right, everything done by Lawful good is the most right. The definition works, it is right and right, so it is right. Now look at Chaotic Good. It is wrong and right. If it is wrong, it cannot be good, because the definition of good means right. But, if it is right, it can't be Chaotic, because the definition of chaotic means wrong. You end up dealing in a contradiction of terms. Lawful Evil becomes right and wrong, definitionally. But that is not what we mean by Lawful Evil or Chaotic Good. And so, because philosophic discussion around morality, when dealing with absolutes which DnD tends to present, sets us up with one side being right and the other wrong, it cannot view Law and Chaos as moral distinctions. If it did, Elves and Unicorns would be as bad as Devils and Tyrants. Both are a mix of "bad things" and "good things" They would occupy the same position morally, because they both follow the "correct" moral path (good and law respectively) and the "incorrect" moral path (chaos and evil respectively) This doesn't work. This is nonsense in the story that DnD presents. We can make it work. We can twist it and go subjective and make it all fit, but the far more elegant solution is just to view law and chaos as not being moral, but being exactly what they are. How orderly are you? How much do you live your life by rules and regulations? Not that that doesn't break down immediately either, because of course following rules is normally the morally right thing to do, unless the rules are evil or tyrannical. [/QUOTE]
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