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<blockquote data-quote="Tilenas" data-source="post: 4396979" data-attributes="member: 71414">While this assertion is indeed correct, it does not help finding the answer to the problem, as neiter A nor B implies that the caster may choose the target(s).I think one major problem lies in the way the spell descriptions are worded. Some descriptions (hypnotic pattern, for one) seem to suggest that a successful saving throw is a rare exception and thus use terms like affected rather lightly: &quot;Roll 2d4 and add your caster level (maximum 10) to determine the total number of Hit Dice of creatures affected.&quot;Then: &quot;Affected creatures become fascinated by the pattern of colors.&quot;It is written in a neutral way, as if a saving throw didn't exist because it implies that the targets you choose suffer the ill effect of the spell automatically. Maybe the spell didn't allow a save when the text was written, who knows?I think that stance is a burden carried over from previous editions, where a saving throw was viewed as the ability to occationally weasel out of a situation, not a proper defense anyone could employ regularly (see 4th edition).[EDIT: of couse, you don't get to choose any targets with hypnotic pattern. guess i took my choice of words rather lightly as well <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />]</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tilenas, post: 4396979, member: 71414"] While this assertion is indeed correct, it does not help finding the answer to the problem, as neiter A nor B implies that the caster may choose the target(s). I think one major problem lies in the way the spell descriptions are worded. Some descriptions (hypnotic pattern, for one) seem to suggest that a successful saving throw is a rare exception and thus use terms like [I]affected[/I] rather lightly: "Roll 2d4 and add your caster level (maximum 10) to determine the total number of Hit Dice of creatures affected." Then: "Affected creatures become fascinated by the pattern of colors." It is written in a neutral way, as if a saving throw didn't exist because it implies that the targets you choose suffer the ill effect of the spell automatically. Maybe the spell didn't allow a save when the text was written, who knows? I think that stance is a burden carried over from previous editions, where a saving throw was viewed as the ability to occationally weasel out of a situation, not a proper defense anyone could employ regularly (see 4th edition). [EDIT: of couse, you don't get to choose any targets with hypnotic pattern. guess i took my choice of words rather lightly as well ;)] [/QUOTE]

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