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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 4399251" data-attributes="member: 957">Well, that is where we disagree.  I think the wording in Sleep trumps the wording in HP for applying Sleep.  And I think it is clear in the example in Sleep that the Ogre never even rolled.Nope.  In my application there is no Shrodinger problem.  If there are enough HD of other lower HD monsters (in the Ogre's case anything greater than 1) within the area, then the spell never hits him any more than the errant spider fang hit the fighter.  The fighter is not a Shrodinger case.  Either the fang hit or it missed.  The ogre is not a Shrodinger case, either the spell touched him or it did not.  If there are enough other HD available, then it did not.  Simple, no reason to ever even consider rolling the die.Now, you can say that the case of a wizard casting Sleep at a "lone" ogre with the expectation of indirectly targeting him by default, only to have three or four invisible kobolds fall over is strange.  But so be it.  I've already agreed that you are going to have oddball interactions when you start mixing and matching effects.  That just doesn't bother me.  And this case in particular isn't really illogical.  It is just unexpected.  It also doesn't bother me that a first level spell may not work out right in the presence of a second level spell.  Though CoD would have the same issue.  So, ok, still seems fair.  That is what invisibility does.  It prevents people from having all the data to correctly make choices.  Invisibility does not actually interact with Sleep or CoD. Both spells resolve exactly the same whether the kobolds are visible or not.  Invis just interacts with the CoD caster to prompt him to interact with surroundings in ways that don't match his perception.</blockquote>

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