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Message: <blockquote data-quote="two" data-source="post: 2105129" data-attributes="member: 9002">The Guilty Preaches to the ChoirI think you absolutely fail to take into account the nature of the "initial setup" of the encounter.  You make a very basic error in your reasoning, which is highlighted by your example of the TRex at the bottom of the cliff.If a party is walking down a road, peeks over a cliff, sees a TRex at the bottom, and decides to attack, it could be very bad for the TRex.  One movement-hindering spell, some arrows, fireballs, etc. and the TRex is dead without any danger to the party.  This is a true example of a fight with a drastically lowered EL.  The party might gain very little XP from the "encounter", which nobody would much argue with.  All it cost them was a few spells and arrows.HOWEVER.What about the situation where the party is told a TRex is maurading a village etc.  The party could charge in and pull a hack-fest on the TRex, and if they win get full XP for simply charging into battle.  On the other hand, they decide to be clever.  They use illusion spells and summoned creatures to lure the TRex into a canyon; use a movement hindering spell to stop the TRex from leaving; and then kill it from the cliff above with summoned monsters/arrows/spells/whatever.  Again, the party has little chance of being hurt, and the end result (TRex a sitting duck to ranged attack) is the same.  However, in this case, the party GETS FULL XP.  Absolutely.  No question.Why?What is the difference between the two scenarios of the "sitting duck TRex?"Well, in the first, the party just stumbled upon the TRex who was having a very bad day.  The "encounter" started with the TRex at the bottom of the cliff/canyon/whatever.  The encounter level is low because of the situation:  the party has all the advantages, and did nothing to gain them.  So, not much XP.In the second scenario, the encounter started long before the TRex was at the bottom of the cliff/canyon.  In fact, it "started" the moment the party heard about the TRex and decided to do something other than a hackfest.  The party spent time and spells to lure the TRex into an ambush; had to make clever decisions and use stealth/other means to do so; had to have things go right to some extent.  And, when they do, the TRex is a sitting duck.  But the EL is not lowered because of the situation, because THE PARTY PLANNED AND USED RESOURCES TO CREATE THE SITUATION.That's the key difference.The Griffon encounter is no different. The Griffon "encounter" actually started far before the sneaky rogue whacked 'em.  It started with the Griffon not being able to spot a party that put a premium on stealth/hiding, and which had some good spot bonuses which saw the Griffon in turn.  Most parties are not stealthy like that.  Those that are get rewarded.  So the party knows there is not 1 but 2 griffons.  After spending some spells/resouces, they pinpoint the nest.  After spending more spells/resouces, they get their rogue invisible+silenced and able to crawl up the cliff.  By the time the rogue gets up the cliff, the sleeping Griffons are in a world of trouble.  But it wasn't just bad luck.  It wasn't the Griffon's fault.  It was, rather, due to the planning and makeup of the party itself.  You absoluely MUST reward parties for not doing the stupid hack-n-slash thing.I mean, c'mon people!  If the party had just loudly tromped up to the Griffons, allowing the Griffons to ambush then and start a long battle -- which the PC's eventually win, say -- the party would be kicking and screaming if any XP was withheld.  It was a 'fair fight' after all, by the book. Full XP.  That's if the party is completely lacking in any tactical flair.So what do you do with a party that is sneaky, clever, plans, spends resources on "invisiblity" and "silence" instead of SMII and Scorching Ray?  Of course, you punish them for putting the Griffons in a bad spot and easily taking them out.That's a good plan.  Will surely make for wonderful game play in the future.To repeat:  THE ENCOUNTER STARTED DAYS BEFORE THE GRIFFONS DIED.To repeat:  DO NOT REWARD BUMBLING HACK-N-SLASH MORE THAN CLEVER PLANNING.I can't tell you how overjoyed I would be if my players managed to kill a roomfull of orcs due to planning and a clever use of spells/stealth/etc.  It would be wonderfully refreshing, and quite exciting too.  Will the orc guard get "silenced" before he can cry out?  Can the party avoid a trap without making noise?  Will the orc cook smell them coming down the corridor?  Will the silence web spell get most of the low-reflex save orcs stuck fast?  Will the subsequent attack kill the orcs without the PC's losing a single hit point?Please, for the love of all that is holy, don't PUNISH PC's and parties for being smart!Full XP for the Griffon killings.  100% absoutely full.  Personally, I would even give a bonus to the party for not doing the stupid thing ("we rush up the hill towards the nest loudly").*if you still don't want to give full XP consider all the party resources that have been used*-- Silence spell-- Spider Climb-- Invisiblity-- Investment in + to hide cloaks-- Skill investment in hide/spot-- Fly spell + Invis to scoutThat's a lot of resources for this relatively low-level party.Plus there is the danger that one of the Griffons might luckily wake and chew on the solo rogue.  It's not without danger -- but the danger is minimized.  Because of the party's efforts.</blockquote>

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